Festival of Halina (Orsal Judging)

[El Jefe]

(OOC: What is Joe Peasant is married? If he can't pay 2,000 gold and is forced to work off that money in hard labour, he's screwed)

OOC: If 1) Joe Peasant is married, 2) fools around with an underage girl and gets caught, and 3) doesn't have 2,000 gold, then I'd think he'd be well and truly screwed in more ways than one!

 

[Rystil Arden]

(OOC: 2,000 gold is a lot of gold, though. As I said, it is over 50 years worth of money for a peasant, and this is if he contributes every penny to the fine before food, or anything else. The point is that Joe Peasant will not have 2,000 gold. So basically, any married man of this sort who fools around has no incentive to coopeate with the authorities or do anything other than try to run (considering, there's nothing more they can do to him for running except perhaps a death penalty, but would people who worship a goddess like Halina really give death for trying to run?), which is really worse for the girl than if they choose a more reasonable fine, especially since 2,000 is way more gold than she would ever need for child support, unless she wants to buy herself a +1 chastity belt for next time )

 

[El Jefe]

OOC: This is a great discussion, but it's getting to the point where we should consider moving it to Gen Dis or something. But anyway...

Paying the fine pretty much provides for the girl and any child she may conceive from the interlude. Nice option if you can afford it. But if you can't, as they said, it's "jail and hard labor", and we still don't know how long a term of "jail and hard labor" that would be. I'd expect that the hard labor wouldn't be something as meaningless as breaking rocks, but rather doing things that the community needs done, perhaps even doing things that the victim needs done.

Now, why wouldn't a married man run? Any criminal justice system that relies on the cooperation of lawbreakers is pretty much doomed, anyway. That's why the sheriff brings manacles and a couple of guards to bring the suspect in.

 

[Rystil Arden]

(OOC:

Paying the fine pretty much provides for the girl and any child she may conceive from the interlude.

And the child's child. Or the child for his lifetime without having to work. It's excessive--I'm not saying that having a fine is the problem.

I'd expect that the hard labor wouldn't be something as meaningless as breaking rocks, but rather doing things that the community needs done

Certainly--probably some indentured service as a labourer where they have to work for free until the pay off the fine. But the point is not that having a fine (replacable by labour) is an odd idea, but rather that the amount given for the fine is overwhelming

Now, why wouldn't a married man run?

He has a home, a household, and a wife. Running away from all of that is a last resort, and for a reasonable fine, it wouldn't even be worth it financially to run because they could just seize property to make up the fine.)

 

[El Jefe]

(OOC: And the child's child. Or the child for his lifetime without having to work. It's excessive--I'm not saying that having a fine is the problem.

Well, I think excessive is in the eye of the beholder, I don't think anyone has a handle on that. I mean, being the devil's advocate for a moment, you could argue that if they were married, he'd provide for her until the end of either his or her days. What's Joe Peasant's income worth, 1 sp per day? 1 sp provides, per PHB, "poor" food for a day. The lass would still have to put a roof over her head. 1 sp/day is just over 54 years worth of income at the lowest rung of the ladder. If she's 16, that keeps her alive until she's 70. It doesn't maintain her "in the style that she is accustomed to" unless she is Jane Peasant, and it doesn't provide for a child...unless you presume the child will care for her in her old age. Then there's the matter that 1000 gp goes to the city and 1000 gp to the family...none is specifically earmarked for her. Why is that? I mean, is the city just "running up the fine" to encourage marriage? Or to put it out of reach so that Joe Peasant becomes a slave to the city for some unspecified number of years? Does the 1000 gp go to the "widows, orphans, and unwed mothers fund"? Etc.

Certainly--probably some indentured service as a labourer where they have to work for free until the pay off the fine. But the point is not that having a fine (replacable by labour) is an odd idea, but rather that the amount given for the fine is overwhelming

Well, how long is the indentured servitude for? And what is the "rate per day" for paying off the fine? And wasn't "jail and hard labor" an option to be imposed instead of a fine? I don't think it's a given that "jail and hard labor" means specifically 54.1 years of hard labor.

He has a home, a household, and a wife. Running away from all of that is a last resort, and for a reasonable fine, it wouldn't even be worth it financially to run because they could just seize property to make up the fine.)

Well, does Joe own his own house? The cheapest house in the game is 1000 gp for a 1-3 room hut. At 1 sp a day, it would take Joe peasant 27 years to pay that off, so unless he's middle aged or older, odds are he doesn't own it. And what value is having a wife? If she's just caught Joe fooling around with the neighbor girl, she's likely to toss his shoes, anyway! Now, tell me, just what would a fair fine be for a married peasant? I'd think that anything over 30 gp might as well be a million, for most of them. I just don't see Joe Peasant paying the fine, even if you lowered it tenfold.

 

[Bront]

OOC: Ok, I'm having trouble figuring out what's IC and OOC now. Can we SBlock the large OOC posts please?

 

[Rystil Arden]

(OOC:
[SBLOCK]

1 sp/day is just over 54 years worth of income at the lowest rung of the ladder.

1 sp/day is gross income, not net gain, so he'll really be working for significantly longer due to deductions for his own food, unless they starve him to death of course. Then again, considering the huge amounts of cash they are about to get, maybe they'll just save up for a Necklace of Adaptation

Well, how long is the indentured servitude for? And what is the "rate per day" for paying off the fine? And wasn't "jail and hard labor" an option to be imposed instead of a fine? I don't think it's a given that "jail and hard labor" means specifically 54.1 years of hard labor.

Well, it doesn't make sense unless indentured servitude pays the minimum wage of 1 silver/day, or otherwise, all labourers would make a deal with someone where they lend money to get into indentured servitude so they can make more money than their normal wages. And so, unfortunately, they can't pay off the fine without excessive labour.

I'd think that anything over 30 gp might as well be a million, for most of them. I just don't see Joe Peasant paying the fine, even if you lowered it tenfold.

He could do it, though not without feeling it significantly, which is as it should be, I guess. 200 gold means he has to sell off some of his animals, which is a pretty big loss, and then maybe do a bit of labour to pay the difference--two horses with bridles, saddlebags and pack saddles, a cart, a mule, and three pigs will give you all you need.
[/SBLOCK]

 

[El Jefe]

OOC:[sblock]

Well, it doesn't make sense unless indentured servitude pays the minimum wage of 1 silver/day, or otherwise, all labourers would make a deal with someone where they lend money to get into indentured servitude so they can make more money than their normal wages. And so, unfortunately, they can't pay off the fine without excessive labour.

I just don't see where "hard labor" necessarily equates to "enough hard labor to pay off the fine". I mean, if that was the case, there would never be any sense in having the penalty for a crime being 5000 gp, since no one would ever live long enough to pay it off through "hard labor".

He could do it, though not without feeling it significantly, which is as it should be, I guess. 200 gold means he has to sell off some of his animals, which is a pretty big loss, and then maybe do a bit of labour to pay the difference--two horses with bridles, saddlebags and pack saddles, a cart, a mule, and three pigs will give you all you need.

But many peasants won't even have that. My point is, there is always someone so low in the food chain that any fine above a few coppers is out of reach for them. Likewise, there's always someone high enough in the food chain to absorb a huge fine without appearing to take much damage.[/sblock]

 

[Bront]

Sunny, failing to get any of the guidence he was looking for, turns to Daphnie and stutters "Y..you want to ma..ma..marry me?"

Daphnie responds with a smile "Of course Sunny. The teller told me I'd meet the man who'd take me away from here, and I'm sure now that it's you."

A big grin appears on his face "I'll do it. I'll marry you Daphnie."

The scene that follows is a bit awkward, as the Mayor runs to pull the two appart after some very animated shows of affection, especialy for a tied up guy. Ahh, young love. He clears his throat as if nothing happened and says "Well, we'll have a wedding then, at the end of the festival." He turns to Sunny and says "I'll have the Sheriff release you if you'll stay at your caravan and only leave with an escort."

Sunny nods in responce, "Of course."

The Sherrif turns to Troi "You think you can keep him in line?"

Troi respond "Shouldn't be a problem."

The mayor pulls Daphnie off Sunny again. "I think we'll need an escort for Daphnie as well. Perhaps Hellen will watch over her..."

 

[Rystil Arden]

(OOC:
[SBLOCK]

I mean, if that was the case, there would never be any sense in having the penalty for a crime being 5000 gp, since no one would ever live long enough to pay it off through "hard labor".

Exactly Now, you've got my point--that's why this fine is way too high. Based on the US GNP, a 2,000 gp fine for these guys would be equivalent to a 2 million dollar fine for us today.

But many peasants won't even have that. My point is, there is always someone so low in the food chain that any fine above a few coppers is out of reach for them. Likewise, there's always someone high enough in the food chain to absorb a huge fine without appearing to take much damage.

Well, there's always some beggar who can't pay anything, and he would have to work for 5 years to pay off the 200 GP fine, which is reasonable in my opinion. Maybe even a 500 GP fine would work too. But when you have a fine where the vast majority of people (the entire peasant class) can't hope to pay, and where they'd have to work their whole life to pay it off, then oyu have a problem
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