Fiction, rules, or setting first in a core book?

[I'm A Banana]

Order-of-information-wise, if fiction comes at the end, I'd bet a dollar only a small fraction of the people will read it.

If it comes at the beginning, almost everyone will.

But it's also hard to put your best foot foward with fiction. Because if your fiction is weak, or if it doesn't capture the spirit of the world, or if it just throws a lot of new terms at someone without any sort of frame of reference, it will probably stop them from reading the WHOLE book.

Which is why fiction used like artwork -- intermittantly throughout the book to represent things in the text -- is one of the best uses of it. I think of the Van Richten's Guides as great examples of this. The fiction emerges from the rules and the setting, not independant of it -- he is a character, as are the people he interacts with, but he is set in both a setting and a game.

 

[jdrakeh]

Since some people have asked about the fiction and suggested that it be not too long or poorly written, as well as tied into the setting... you be the judge:

Bronze

As the king vultures circled overhead, Bronze knelt upon the burning sand and tore two strips of cloth from his robe with which to bind his feet. He had stopped sweating two hours ago and had cast off his sword as dead weight the night before. Parched to the bone and completely defenseless, if the heat didn’t kill him before he reached Halandor, the grak dogs would. And that was the last thought Bronze had before he collapsed face down in the sand.

The Giant

The giant grunted as he slung the twisted body of the stranger over his shoulder. Judging by the stranger’s weight, Mingo figured that there was enough meat here to feed him for the next four days. Surely this was another sign from Kale that his destiny lie in Halandor. Mingo had received many signs from Kale over the last several days - indeed, just last night, Kale had delivered unto him a fine sword forged of heavy bronze with which to slay the grak dogs that had hounded him. As the giant made his way back to the nearby oasis, he gave thanks to the Blood God for his bounty.

Laying the stranger’s corpse next to his bedroll, Mingo stepped back to examine his supper. As he stood over the dead man, Mingo marveled at his physical size. Never before had the giant seen a man that so nearly rivaled his own stature. This man must have been a mighty warrior in life, for even as he lie lifeless in the desert sand his bronze muscles commanded attention. Mingo frowned. Muscle tissue made for poor sustenance. Too stringy. He briefly considered the dilemma and then decided that after he was done bathing, he would need to boil some water.

After shaking the sand from his hair, Mingo walked to the edge of the nearby pool of water and stripped off his robes. As the giant stepped into the pool, weeks of tension rolled off of his body, the cool water soothing his sun ravaged skin. As the gentle night breeze blew through the oasis, Mingo’s thoughts again drifted to the dead warrior. What wrong had the bronze man committed that so enraged Kale as to strike him down mere footsteps away from the salvation of the oasis? He surely must have offended the Blood God personally. What manner of warrior, wondered Mingo, would dare challenge a god?

The War God

When he opened his eyes, Bronze found himself staring up at the night sky. Or at least he thought it was the night sky. Disoriented and wracked with pain, Bronze found that he could not sit up. With great effort, he managed to feebly extend his left arm and explore his surroundings. Yes, he was definitely on his back. Raking his fingers through the sand, he stopped when they touched the hilt of his sword. His sword! Yar! Energy and pain surged through his veins as Bronze bolted upright, releasing a mighty howl. This was final judgement!

As Bronze struggled to wrap his fingers around the hilt of his sword, he wondered if it had been the grak dogs or the sun that had finally done him in. No time for that. Yar was near. Bronze cringed as he leaned forward and assumed a crouching position. No fear. If he faced Yar valiantly, the War God would grant him a charge in the great host. Bronze groaned as he tried to gain his feet, his vision blurring. He heard a splash behind him and turned to face the War God who stood black against the pale moon, knee deep in a pool of crimson gore.

The Blood God

Mingo lie floating on his back in the small pool of water, visions of Halandor dancing through his head when, suddenly, the night was pierced by a bloodcurdling wail. Startled, the giant inhaled a mouthful of water as he jerked upright. A gurgling noise issuing forth from his throat, Mingo turned to see the dead man shambling about on the shore. Kale! The zombi was wielding his sword! His mind racing, the giant’s hands fumbled beneath the surface of the pool looking for a weapon, a stone, anything. What had he done to anger the Blood God?

As he watched Kale’s gruesome avatar stumble about, Mingo momentarily considered running naked through the desert in the opposite direction and hoping for the best, but then thought better of it. To die at the hands of the Blood God was a great honor. Or so his people believed. At the moment, Mingo wasn’t so sure he wanted that honor, but if Kale demanded his blood, Mingo knew that sooner or later the god would have it. The giant decided that death was death, no matter when or how it came, and now was as good a time as any to die. With a grunt and a splash, Mingo stood up to face the Blood God.

Clash of the Titans

The Blood God readied his sword, groaning as he shifted from one foot to the other, watching the motionless War God, waiting for the giant in the pool to make the first move. The War God stood motionless, his mouth contorting into a cruel smile as he wondered how to kill something that was already dead. For that single moment, the gentle breeze ceased to blow and time stood still. And then, with two mighty roars, the battle was joined.

The Blood God wailed as he lurched toward the bellowing War God, raising his sword in the air, while the War God bellowed as he ran toward the wailing Blood God, both arms outstretched as if to strangle the foul zombi. As they closed on one another, the Blood God dropped to one knee and rolled forward, his sword aimed at the charging War God’s belly. With surprising speed, the War God knocked the sword aside with his left hand and made to grab the Blood God with his right. Momentarily knocked off balance, the Blood God did the only thing that he could do to avoid the massive hands of the War God - he fell flat on his back.

As the War God stepped over the Blood God’s prostrate avatar, the dead thing groaned, legs suddenly surging upward, corpse muscles rippling, planting both of its feet squarely in the War God’s groin. And with that, the War God bellowed one last time as he fell on top of the already prone Blood God, pinning him firmly to the ground. As the gentle night breeze again began to blow through the oasis, the starry sky far above the desert floor was filled with laughter as Yar and Kale gazed down from the heavens upon their new champions.

That's the only fiction in the game (in 2-column format it comes out to be just under 2 pages in length). It was written to serve as a brief look at the setting and convey the intended tone of the game. I'm not claiming to be Leiber, so it may suck hard - but I like and that's all that really matters... still, it couldn't hurt to get [more] feedback

 

[I'm A Banana]

Here's my Gamer's Critique. Keep in mind that I'm often pretty harsh, but I'm veiwing this in a context of a campaign setting book.

1) Nothing steps out at me as "unique". I don't get much of a sense of the world other than that there's giants and sand and gods. And that doesn't really tell me a lot. Deserts with giants and gods can exist in almost any setting.

2) It takes too long to get to the action. A man falls unconcious, there's a lot of down time, and then a fight happens. The fiction should contain the moments of potential, not the moments of peace. It should be ABOUT the struggle to survive or the fight, not about the space in between.

3) There's a confusing amount of name-dropping. You need to provide a context before you provide a name. Define why the god is importnat (and that it is, in fact, a god) before you name it. Make the move from the emotion the character is experiencing to the name more gradually, so people can follow that chain of thought a little better. It's not Yar that's important -- it's what Yar means to your character.

All told, I would've read up to about the part where Mingo starts eating before I put the book down and looked at something else, knowing that the characters will be safe-ish, and not really caring about the context they fit into much.

 

[BWP]

Somewhat related to Crothian's recent poll - in a core book that contains short fiction, setting, and rules, what order do you prefer to see these things presented in?

Why would I want fiction in my core rules book?

 

[jdrakeh]

1) Nothing steps out at me as "unique". I don't get much of a sense of the world other than that there's giants and sand and gods. And that doesn't really tell me a lot. Deserts with giants and gods can exist in almost any setting.

Like most Swords & Sorcery short fiction being 'unique' isn't the point

2) It takes too long to get to the action. A man falls unconcious, there's a lot of down time, and then a fight happens. The fiction should contain the moments of potential, not the moments of peace. It should be ABOUT the struggle to survive or the fight, not about the space in between.

Introspection is also extremely commonplace in Swords & Sorcery fiction, but you're right - I may have focused too much on that.

3) There's a confusing amount of name-dropping. You need to provide a context before you provide a name. Define why the god is importnat (and that it is, in fact, a god) before you name it. Make the move from the emotion the character is experiencing to the name more gradually, so people can follow that chain of thought a little better. It's not Yar that's important -- it's what Yar means to your character.

The 'name dropping' is extremely common in Swords & Sorcery short fiction (particularly Leiber's fiction) - explaining name-dropped references in the detailed manner that you suggest is very unusual in Swords & Sorcery fiction.

All told, I would've read up to about the part where Mingo starts eating before I put the book down and looked at something else, knowing that the characters will be safe-ish, and not really caring about the context they fit into much.

I can only asusme that the early Conan stories and Lankhmar novels must have been extremely boring for you, then

Thanks for the critique, though.

 

[jdrakeh]

Why would I want fiction in my core rules book?

I dunno. Millions of White Wolf fans seem to like it.

 

[painandgreed]

Like most Swords & Sorcery short fiction being 'unique' isn't the point

No, but if you think your game is unique, whatever fiction you present represents that uniqueness and should pay service to it. There was another thread on ENworld a bit back about naming ten things that make your homebrew different from the published settings. Your fiction should address those ten things or at least a few of the main ones. Besides setting the tone and flavor of the game, it should inform the reader why the game is special. Right now, your fiction says that your game is like any other Conan game but you couldn't pay the royalties on the name. Is the entire world a desert? Is the giant special? Is the characters relationship to their gods special? If so, these things need to be spelled out better so that once they read the rules, they already know the stuff and all it does is give a mechanic to the fiction.

In WW's fiction, most of it spell out the setting. It's not a coincidence that most of such fiction happens to be one NPC informing another about the world. It informs the reader at the same time and sums up the entire setting in one tenth the space.

 

[jdrakeh]

No, but if you think your game is unique,

There's the rub - I never sell (or promote) anything that I write on the grounds that it's unique. Being unique doesn't ever really factor into things that I write, so much as being functional does. Bronze has some very specific design goals - one of which is not to provide a completely pre-defined world that characters merely wander through.

Right now, your fiction says that your game is like any other Conan game but you couldn't pay the royalties on the name.

Admittedly, that's kind of the point... Bronze isn't about telling stories, but about creating them. The fiction and the loosely defined setting serve a springboard for actual play, which defines the setting as the game unfolds (yes, mechanically) - much as a story unfolds as it is written. In games of Bronze, the players actually create the world as they play, much as Leiber or Howard defined Nehwon and Hyborea as they penned stories.

Is the entire world a desert? Is the giant special? Is the characters relationship to their gods special? If so, these things need to be spelled out better so that once they read the rules, they already know the stuff and all it does is give a mechanic to the fiction.

Some of these questions are addressed in the setting section of Bronze (again, describing them in the fiction runs contrary to the genre). Even then, though, the details given are only the fundamentals (tech level, commerce, social structure, geography, etc). I want the players to define the Sisterhood of Eibon, the City of Night, and the Crypt of Knarl as they envision them.

In WW's fiction, most of it spell out the setting. It's not a coincidence that most of such fiction happens to be one NPC informing another about the world. It informs the reader at the same time and sums up the entire setting in one tenth the space.

That is true - but unlike Swords & Sorcery fiction, describing things in minute detail during character monologue makes perfect sense for horror. In Swords & Sorcery fiction the world is rarely (if ever) spelled out, but rather is described in the background of the stories as they are told. In Sowrds & Sorcery fiction, the heroes are the centerpiece of the action, not the setting.

All of this may add up to Bronze being different (I wouldn't go so far as to say unique), but one thing is certain - these goals have certainly provided an unusual challenge where setting and fiction are concerned.

 

[Torm]

After reading the fiction (and realizing it is only 2 pages, rather than the novella I had imagined), I wish to change my vote: It should go in front of the Setting material. So, Rules first, then Fiction, then Setting.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well, I am harsh.

Like most Swords & Sorcery short fiction being 'unique' isn't the point

Perhaps I'm not your target audience, then. Most S&S fiction bores me to tears. I'd try less for what others do and more for what you think you need to do for your setting. And I need to be sold on the setting, usually. To be told why to use this instead of that. And the first page or two is going to go a long way toward telling me that. Or, not.

Introspection is also extremely commonplace in Swords & Sorcery fiction, but you're right - I may have focused too much on that.

It's an economy of space. You've got 500 words to get my blood pumping about this setting. GO! The above only starts pumping as the fight happens; by about 150 words, I've already decided whether to invest a lot of time in it. Introspection doesn't, generally speaking, make me want to continue reading (though it can shed light on things I've already read).

The 'name dropping' is extremely common in Swords & Sorcery short fiction (particularly Leiber's fiction) - explaining name-dropped references in the detailed manner that you suggest is very unusual in Swords & Sorcery fiction.

It's not so much the dropping of the names as how you drop them. Again, maybe I, as someone who's not a huge fan of Leiber or Howard, am not your target. In which case it doesn't really matter. But when a character goes "Yar!" I'd like to know right away what that means -- whether it's a god, whether it's a name, whether it's a dimension, a kingdom, or whether the character just thinks their a pirate. I don't have an innate curiosity about your world per se, and fiction, especially in the front, is going to have to make me curious, make me want to spend time there. It's gotta lure me in before it can expect me to accept it's terms. And if I have to do the work of reading more to find out what was being referenced in the first place, I'm like as not just to go do something else.

I can only asusme that the early Conan stories and Lankhmar novels must have been extremely boring for you, then

Too boring for me to really read, anyway. Which may be why I'm not a good audience.

I mean, I look at it as a setting that is using fiction to try and convey what it means, rather than as something like an excerpt from a book suspended in that book's setting. As a game supplement first and a work of fiction second. So the fiction should serve the game, should introduce, color, and contextualize the information in the game. Much like a visual image, it should tell me something about the world. I don't want Piccasso to illustrate my settings, and I wouldn't want Tolkien to write fiction for it, so I don't think the art in a book has to meet or conform to those standards.

It's a question of genre, in the end. And fiction in a game supplement is different than fiction that is just fiction, a novel or story. Art in a game supplement is different than art that is just art, a painting or drawing.

As much as your story may follow the tropes of Sword-And-Sorcery, it isn't, primarily, a peice of sword-and-sorcery fiction. It's game supplement fiction. So it should, IMHO, follow the tropes of game supplement fiction rather than those of S&S fiction.

This is all just my own theory of the situation, and I can be infuriatingly high-minded about such things, so don't think that I'm typical or anything. It may help, but you may want the reader to get something totally different out of this peice of fiction than what I am trying to get out of it.