Fiend Folio: what wasn't included

[Thunderstorm]

I agree with Aeris....Fallen Celestials would be striped of everything given to them by their celestial leaders...they then must be reborn to some darker purpose...

 

[Knight Otu]

Is that better? is it finally complete now?

*Checks* Nope. Details in approprite thread.

 

[The Serge]

The problem I have with a Fallen Celestial template, at least the once printed in Legions of Hell, is the fact that the entity actually acquires more power after the fall... and loses virtually nothing in a game sense (it has a tough job entering holy sites).

I think this problem is compounded by the fact that in Green Ronin, the answer to the Fallen Celestial template, Archangels, are not a template so much as it is an enhancement to existing immunities and resistances (and Celestial Aura).

Furthermore, there is no real "Risen Fiend" concept, something which would have reduced/eliminated the idea that Green Ronin's cosmology and ideas are heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian-Islamic concepts (a superficial view, in my mind). The closest we get to a "Risen Fiend" is the Reforged template... a process by which an Evil being is forced to become Good. (Most Christian traditions do not allow for the redemption of Angelic beings. Those who suggested such a thing, like Origen, were excommunicated by the Catholic Church).

So, effectively, not only do sentient creatures become more powerful when they become evil, they also have a choice in the matter. It's a strange concept from otherwise great material from Green Ronin.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Furthermore, there is no real "Risen Fiend" concept, something which would have reduced/eliminated the idea that Green Ronin's cosmology and ideas are heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian-Islamic concepts (a superficial view, in my mind). The closest we get to a "Risen Fiend" is the Reforged template... a process by which an Evil being is forced to become Good. (Most Christian traditions do not allow for the redemption of Angelic beings. Those who suggested such a thing, like Origen, were excommunicated by the Catholic Church).

So, effectively, not only do sentient creatures become more powerful when they become evil, they also have a choice in the matter. It's a strange concept from otherwise great material from Green Ronin.

The thing that was troubling about Origen's view was not so much that he thought that fiends could find redemption, but that he thought that (current) angels could potentially fall. The bishops didn't think that heaven and hell had revolving doors.

Modern theology, imho, doesn't have an adequate metaphysical basis for discussions of angelology (neo-Thomism doesn't cut it imho). So the discussion hasn't really advanced beyond the middle ages.

I think that in the default D&D cosmology there is nothing corresponding to the fall of the angels; a few celestials might have fallen, but their numbers are far exceeded by the number of "native" fiends. I base this assertion on the fact that fiends and celestials do not seem to correspond to one another, except in the vaguest way. Is a vrock a fallen avoral? (both are feathery) Is a glabrezu a fallen hound archon? (both have doggy features) If so, then a lot more seems to be going on than the replacement of one template by another.

 

[The Serge]

The thing that was troubling about Origen's view was not so much that he thought that fiends could find redemption, but that he thought that (current) angels could potentially fall. The bishops didn't think that heaven and hell had revolving doors.

I don't know that I find this troubling... I do think it's contradictory to Origen's ultimate idea that all beings, even Satan, will be forgiven in the end. For former thought you attribute to Origen (I actually don't recall reading this) suggests that all sentient beings can continue to make choices throughout Time. But, in the end, it doesn't really matter what choice one makes because he'll be brought back to the One.

Modern theology, imho, doesn't have an adequate metaphysical basis for discussions of angelology (neo-Thomism doesn't cut it imho). So the discussion hasn't really advanced beyond the middle ages.

Well, considering that enough different Christian sects strove to direct everything to Christ/God, and reduce the impact of other beneficent spirits (they were either faceless angels or became Demons), this is not surprising. Heck, there are a lot of Christians who do not believe in a personified Satan.

I think that in the default D&D cosmology there is nothing corresponding to the fall of the angels; a few celestials might have fallen, but their numbers are far exceeded by the number of "native" fiends. I base this assertion on the fact that fiends and celestials do not seem to correspond to one another, except in the vaguest way. Is a vrock a fallen avoral? (both are feathery) Is a glabrezu a fallen hound archon? (both have doggy features) If so, then a lot more seems to be going on than the replacement of one template by another.

I think the reason why there's nothing in the default cosmology dealing with fallen angels is because WotC is afraid of treading what appears to be clear religious lines. I think this comes too close to the times they were dealing with fundamentalists in the 80's, so they decided to err on the side of caution. I think this is the reason why we don't see divine Archfiends as well.

Also, I think ruleslawyer already pointed out that there are enough religious/mythological cosmologies in which there were demonic (I mean Evil) spirits about before angelic beings started moving around. I don't think there has to be a fall for their to be demonic beings.

But, when we start looking at a game in which there's an answer for virtually everything, the lack of a true Fallen Celestial template is glaring. I do not consider Green Ronin's Fallen Celestial template as appropriate largely because it doesn't make sense within the framework of what their cosmology offers (unless one believes that the Lords of Goodness -- literally all gods opposed to Asmodeus and the various Demon Princes -- are Archangels+). The fall implies that the angels lost something profound. This is in no ways reflected in the template and I think that's problematic.

Still, I like virtually everything GR has put out, so I guess they can make a faux pas every now and again...