Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[Bryan898]

Yes, you are. It's not a "just another monster" issue, it's a matter of internal logic. If the lords of the underworld are only CR 30 or so, how the heck do they avoid being conquered by deities?

I don't know about anyone else, but in my campaigns deities don't have true bodies. They're fully capable of creating avatars, but their avatars sit in the 30's range as well. Their lives and powers are based completely on beliefs, and if no one believes in them they die.

While Kurtulmak may very well have worlds full of kobold followers, they aren't going to do much good against the hordes of devils at the disposal of the Lords of the Nine. Nor is Kurtulmak's avatar going to get very far when the Lords themselves have guard battalions that number in the thousands, as well as more powerful creatures.

As far as my campaigns go, the CR 30 area is the Top of the pyramid and it's ruled by the ancient creatures that date to the creation of the planes. If PCs hit that level, they're legends to the planes that can stand against god's avatars, demon lords, etc. They still lack the power base that those others have built over thousands of years, and hence they're weaker. I don't care what level you are, a million baatezu coming your way is a problem.


As for the Fiendish Codex, I'd love to see the archfiends and demon lords statted out. I used Mephistopheles (though I increased his power) as a climax to a long term campaign that ended at 28th level, and as I understand it that's generally how they're used. Even BoVD style worked for me, as it provides a good base to work with. It's easy to increase something's power, what takes time is coming up with the abilities the creature has, skills, etc. Then the real kicker is giving it a CR, which they do for you.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

Trying to apply internal logic to D&D fails 99 out of 100 times.

That's true, to some extent. This is a problem that has only really appeared in the latest edition of the game, though, and it's one that's easily fixable by equalizing the power gap between gods and planar rulers.

Just waving your hands and saying, "Bah, D&D and mythology don't make any sense anyway" isn't really a viable solution for me, not when things are in this case so easy to fix. God doesn't destroy Satan because Satan is part of his divine plan, because he's infinitely merciful, because (according to Gnostic reasoning) he's removed himself from the physical universe, or because (according to Manichaean logic) they're of equal strength. That doesn't explain why Hextor doesn't decide to renegotiate his deal with Asmodeus, or sponsor Baalzebul or Mephistopheles to take over instead if Asmodeus won't give him better terms.

Along the same lines as "why doesn't Kurtulmak just take out Asmodeus"...well, why doesn't he just take out all deities of a lower divine rank

Because the reward for taking out Asmodeus is so much greater, and because it's so much easier to kill something sub-divine than it is to mess with other pantheons.

But you're right again, to an extent. Kurtulmak could destroy Raxivort and add xvarts, rats, and bats to his followers, for example, if he was inclined to add that chaotic rabble to his list of responsibilities.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

I don't know about anyone else, but in my campaigns deities don't have true bodies. They're fully capable of creating avatars, but their avatars sit in the 30's range as well. Their lives and powers are based completely on beliefs, and if no one believes in them they die.

I think that's awesome, and it's a great fix to the problem I mentioned on the previous page. If only WotC would do something similar!

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, TSR did; this is essentially the 2e/Planescape conception of powers.

At the risk of potentially taking this thread FURTHER off-topic (when it's already at 7 pages; whew!), I'd actually disagree with BOZ that skipping the stats is "throwing the baby out with the bath water." I simply think that it's not possible to generate a single set of archfiend (or deific) stats that'll satisfy everyone, or even a substantial majority, because everyone seems to have their own take on how the archfiends should be done. (F'rex, even though I have access to the Creature Catalog stats, the BoVD/Demonomicon stats, the Dicefreaks stats, and the alternate [powered-down] Dicefreaks stats, I use yet a FIFTH set of stats for the archfiends!) Since a set of stats for the archfiends already has seen official WotC printing in the BoVD (and semi-official printing in the Demonomicon), I'd suggest doing what I think DDG should have done in the first place with gods: Provide a 2-3 page discussion of various philosophies regarding archfiend power levels (should they be gods? Should they be "high-epic" threats? Should they be "low-epic" threats? and why) and a few example stats at various power levels (CR 20-30, CR 35-45, deific) for a sample archfiend or two (my votes are either for completely new ones, or for Asmodeus and Demogorgon, of course!).

I'm one of those who tends to think that stat blocks often come at the expense of more immediately DM-useful information like new non-epic fiends, prestige classes, cults, magic items, spells, rituals, locations, etc. For instance, I find DDG and Faiths and Pantheons (I run an FR campaign) nearly useless; DDG got returned to Amazon in 5 days, whereas the spine on Faiths and Pantheons has barely been cracked (except for the excellent adventure location at the back!). It's not that I don't think that stats are useful; it's just that, for beings of such uniqueness and power, it's all too likely that DMs will want to customize their own stats anyway. In many ways, providing a sample god of each deific power category (greater, intermediate, lesser, demigod) with detailed design notes and suggestions for leveling them up or down would have made it EASIER for a DM like me to stat the FR pantheon than having all those premade stat blocks!

 

[Staffan]

The stats for the Demon Princes cover approx. 2 pages and we get one such article every 4 issues. Thats the equivalent of half a page per issue.

Added to which, as James himself states, the Demon Princes are designed in and around CR 25-30 so that they can still be used by non-epic campaigns in a sort of 'final boss' capacity. So in some respects they are no more 'epic' than a Great Wyrm Red Dragon for instance.

Yet seemingly we still have to put up with the whining of the haters trying to take away the last vestige of quasi-epic material from starving epic gamers. I SAY THEE NAY!

I don't care if they put stats for heavy-hitters in Dragon/Dungeon or in a web enhancement. But I won't buy a sourcebook where a third of the page count is taken up by stat blocks for gods and the like, stat blocks that I will never use. I have been burned once (Faiths & Pantheons), and I'd prefer not to be burned again. I'd rather they spend those pages on something that's actually useful.

In other words, I like my god books (and other books that deal with powerful beings) to be more Faiths & Avatars, less Deities & Demigods.

 

[Pants]

Yes, you are. It's not a "just another monster" issue, it's a matter of internal logic. If the lords of the underworld are only CR 30 or so, how the heck do they avoid being conquered by deities? When Kurtulmak can finish Asmodeus off in a few rounds and teleport away, something is very wrong with the cosmology. Why hasn't Demogorgon been slaughtered by rival gods of the aquatic races? How did Pazuzu manage to curse the entire race of kenku, as described in the recent Dragon ecology? How did the Lords of the Nine banish the orcish and goblin pantheons from the Nine Hells?

I think you missed the point.
I said:

Posted Originally by Me
In fact, even if I don't always agree with the stats, they at least provide me with ideas should I ever want to stat them up myself.

So *gasp* I kinda sorta agree with you! They don't make sense as statted in the BoVD, but that doesn't mean that statting them out is a completely worthless endeavor.

So, I'm not objecting to people making the stats better (or more... logical), I'm objecting to those who make jerks out of themselves by saying 'tehy don't need stats it makes them into just another monster' while simultaneously crapping on someone elses game style.

I, personally, wouldn't really care if it makes sense or not. If I want a confrontation with a Demon Prince to the culmination of an epic campaign, then I will have it. I'm playing a game after all, not some lesson in logic.

This is a problem that has only really appeared in the latest edition of the game, though,

Not really. Things change between editions all the time or, as is the case with 1e, they evolved throughout that edition.

Back on topic: I also think that FCI:HotA shouldn't have any Demonic Prince stats in them. They take up a lot of room and, as is seen here, no one really agrees with how powerful they should be or even if they should be statted out at all. Might as well keep the stats and the big writeups as a part of Dragon.

 

[BOZ]

Since a set of stats for the archfiends already has seen official WotC printing in the BoVD (and semi-official printing in the Demonomicon), I'd suggest doing what I think DDG should have done in the first place with gods: Provide a 2-3 page discussion of various philosophies regarding archfiend power levels (should they be gods? Should they be "high-epic" threats? Should they be "low-epic" threats? and why) and a few example stats at various power levels (CR 20-30, CR 35-45, deific) for a sample archfiend or two (my votes are either for completely new ones, or for Asmodeus and Demogorgon, of course!).

ooh, i like that!

still watching James & Erik?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Grover!

Yes, you are. It's not a "just another monster" issue, it's a matter of internal logic. If the lords of the underworld are only CR 30 or so, how the heck do they avoid being conquered by deities?

Exactly...especially given the rules of D&Dg where a god of higher rank has such an upper hand on those of lower rank.

When Kurtulmak can finish Asmodeus off in a few rounds and teleport away, something is very wrong with the cosmology. Why hasn't Demogorgon been slaughtered by rival gods of the aquatic races? How did Pazuzu manage to curse the entire race of kenku, as described in the recent Dragon ecology? How did the Lords of the Nine banish the orcish and goblin pantheons from the Nine Hells?

In 1st edition, fiendish rulers were all lesser gods, and most of them were of a similar or greater amount of power in 2nd edition. That made a certain amount of sense - even Bane would hesitate before taking on a plane ruled by nine lesser deities. In 3rd edition, all semblance of sense is lost - the rulers of nine infinite domains are vermin, less than that.
Vhaeraun can march into the Gray Waste and give orders to the Oinoloth, as he did in a recent drow-themed novel.

Anthraxus should have dropped that fool like a bag o' dirt...assuming they still don't have a darn Ultroloth on the throne in that novel...?

Evil deities are not the types to make peace treaties if they don't have to, nor are they the normally the types to cower in fear of what the other deities might say - it's inevitable in the cosmology implied by the current rules that someone stronger than the rest is going to take control, and the eons of self-rule the demons, devils, and other fiends has enjoyed is gone forever.

Does the official cosmology even make the slightest sense nowadays though?

And that's fine, if that's what you want - a multiverse where Bane or Hextor rule the Nine Hells and Cyric and Talos or Erythnul and Raxivort are the mightiest of the lords of the Abyss.

Hell no!

But, I mean, if Raxivort and Iuz are both mightier than Graz'zt, why is Graz'zt still alive and not serving them drinks in a French maid's uniform?

Maybe hes waiting for continuity to catch up with him.

The common retort I hear is something along the lines of "the other deities would all turn against anyone that threatened the status quo in the lower planes," but a campaign where evil deities don't threaten the status quo (especially on the chaotic planes) sounds like one where evil deities aren't doing their jobs. And who really loves Graz'zt so much that they'd object to his son or former servant taking his place?

I think it's completely fair to criticize a cosmology that's poorly thought out. James Jacobs' fix of making the stat blocks into avatars is fine - but it's still weird to see the default assumption be the least reasonable one.

I presented a solution a while back.

Here is the Abyssal version:

- Demonic Champion 15-19 HD, rules single holding (ie. Castle), Hero-deity
- Demon Lord 20-29 HD, rules part of an abyssal layer (1d6 holdings), Quasi-deity
- Demon Prince 30-39 HD, rules one or more (1d6) layers, Demi-deity
- Demon Monarch 40-59 HD, rules multiple (10d6) layers, Lesser Deity
- Demon Emperor 60-79 HD, rules the entire Abyss, Intermediate Deity (currently there is no - Abyssal Emperor, however I did venture that Lolth/Lilith could be a sort of Demonic Queen Mother who is content to sit in her web rather than vie with the Monarchs for control of the Abyss)
- Nether Emperor 80-119 HD, rules multiple planes, Greater Deity (ie. Nerull/Infestix rules Gehenna, Hades and Tarterus)

A few things to note, I came up with this prior to 3.5 when the Balor was still 13 Hit Dice, the 3.5 build of the Balor is akin to a weak Demon Lord anyway.

I know my Hero-deity and Quasi-deity are reversed from what 1st Edition told us.

Also the dominions of each ruler encompass those of its subordinates. So Demogorgons 10d6 layers would include those realms of the (1d6) Princes, (10d6) Lords and (100d6) Champions under his banner.

To convert the demons from 1st Edition simply divide their original hit points by 4 and see where they are on the scale. If their position doesn't match their known status, multiply by either x1.5, x2, x3 or x4 to get them to the right Hit Dice bracket.

eg. Demogorgon (200 hp) 200 divided by 4 = 50 HD Demon Monarch/Lesser Power

eg. Orcus (120 hp) divided by 4 = 30 HD x1.5 (because we know Orcus is a Demon Monarch) = 45 HD/Lesser Power.

eg. Yeenoghu (110 hp) divided by 4 = 25 HD x1.5 (because we know Yeenoghu is a Demon Prince) = 37 HD/Demipower.

eg. Lolth (66 hp) divided by 4 = 16.5 HD x4 (because we know Lolth is an Intermediate Goddess) = 66 HD/Intermediate Power.

The Avatars of the various Demon Princes would all be Quasi-deities, so Demogorgons Avatar would be 25 HD, as would Yeenoghus, Orcus Avatar would be 22 HD, as would Lolths. To get the HD value of the Avatar simply divide the deities HD by either 1.5, 2, 3 or 4 until it is with the 20-29 HD parameter.

Anyway, just a thought.

 

[Erik Mona]

I have been burned once (Faiths & Pantheons), and I'd prefer not to be burned again.

Just imagine if you'd been one of the poor bastards who had to write that beast...

--Erik

 

[BOZ]

yeah... ouch.