Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Staffan!

I don't care if they put stats for heavy-hitters in Dragon/Dungeon or in a web enhancement.

Glad to hear it.

But I won't buy a sourcebook where a third of the page count is taken up by stat blocks for gods and the like, stat blocks that I will never use. I have been burned once (Faiths & Pantheons), and I'd prefer not to be burned again. I'd rather they spend those pages on something that's actually useful.

In other words, I like my god books (and other books that deal with powerful beings) to be more Faiths & Avatars, less Deities & Demigods.

So you are okay with the stats comprising about 20/190 pages (as per Faiths & Avatars), just not 80/224 pages (as per Deities & Demigods)...noted.

If you actually cut out all the duplicated material from Deities & Demigods stat blocks (and presumably Faiths & Pantheons - I don't own that book) you can actually reduce the space they take up by half, meaning they would only take up 40 pages rather than 80.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Erik!

Just imagine if you'd been one of the poor bastards who had to write that beast...

I've often wondered, what the heck was the thinking behind those books (Faiths & Pantheons and Deities & Demigods), by that I mean who was the target audience they were aiming for!? The universal derision from both camps (stats for gods/no stats for gods) is testament that they satisfied neither.

They are not for players – because there are no rules for becoming a deity.
They are not for DM’s – because there are no mechanics for creating pantheons or deities. They are not for non-epic campaigns – because the deity (and even avatar) stats are too far beyond any physical interaction.
They are not for epic campaigns – because it doesn’t draw upon the information within that book.

Did the designers try to create a book for everyone and in the end come up with a book that ultimately satisfied no one? That seem sto be the only logical conclusion.

The funniest thing was the omission of any epic material from the books because WotC wanted the products to be standalone titles - yet how can any of those stats be relevant to non-epic campaigns! You automatically require the Epic Level Handbook to make one iota of use from them!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Shemeska matey!

I so rarely agree with you, but I do this time.

You're scaring me.

It was FR, which had that whole little retroactive cosmology change. So it wasn't Anthraxus, but an Ultroloth named Inthracis. Either way, the Anthraxus analog in said book was used as cannon fodder, and he was killed by a drow wizard with a cone of cold and a fireball IIRC.

You know how to twist the knife. The abuse of Anthraxus has got to stop...daemons have feelings too y'know.

Anthraxus should be able to eat drow wizards and crap ultroloths...literally!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Bryan!

You know what would really burn me is if they decide to stat out a bunch of cookie cutter followers ALA BoVD. That was the real waste of space IMO. Without the stupid sample followers you could have cut out half the pages used for the Archfiends/ Demon Lords.

I'd be happy if there were unique fiends included in their retinues (as in the Demonomicon), but I agree the cookie-cutter approach doesn't really work for individuals. It makes sense in a few instances, the Ghoul King under Yeenoghu and Quah-Namog under Orcus, since theres an established history there.

Also I wonder does Demogorgon realise he has a dozen Marilith Blackguards (each CR 27) who are each individually more powerful than Graz'zt (CR 24)!

That leads me on to another pet peeve of mine - Outsiders with Class Levels. Please refrain from using this mechanically lazy and philosophically debateable* approach to outsiders where possible.

*Outsiders/Spirits are not free willed beings.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Shemmy mate!

The Lovecraftian trio there are probably closer in concept to DnD Archfiends rather than DnD deities. Cyric and Nerull might have an evil alignment, but Mydianchlarus and Demogordon etc -are- evil. DnD gods are largely the embodiments of their worshipper's beliefs taken form, while the archfiends tend to be the raw embodiments of that alignment personified.

Deities can be forgotten or their worshippers can die off, leaving them a petrified lump of stone in the Astral. So long as their alignment exists, archfiends don't have that issue to worry about. They're made of baser stuff. Being a true deity has its perks, such as not being tied down in your power to a plane or layer of a plane, but also carries responsibilities and risks.

In giving stats to archfiends it's certainly an enigma that you're faced with:

1) some people want to fight them at the end of a campaign, somewhere in the 20ish level range.

Those beings would be Avatars who are roughly quasi-deity level power.

2) Then you've got precident of archfiends killing deities: Asmodeus rumored to have killed Abriymoch, Yugoloths having made Khin-Oin from the spine of a deity they killed, Levistus winning a protracted war against Set and Sekolah both, and the fiends (likely the yugoloths) having put a definative end to deific involvement in the Blood War by killing one nameless deity of chaos and somehow affecting every other deity involved till they all withdrew and have stayed so since that point. In DnD in most all examples the fiends are treated with kid gloves by deities, outside of rare gambles when a deity manages to kill an archfiend and pacify its kindred to avoid being curb stomped by an infinite plane of them. Deities don't interfere with the internal politics of the fiends out of actual concern, not just because it's beneath them or something contrived like that.

Those would be the 'real' Demon Princes/Arch-devils who are themselves godlike in power.

3) Some folks want them with stats but on the order of deities (who they also want statted)

Easily done. Stat the deities and have a paragraph on the Avatars/Aspects.

4) Some folks want them with no stats

Keep the stats to a bare minimum and don't duplicate the same bog-standard material over and over again (for example the entire 'Other Divine Powers' section of each D&Dg entry is irrelevant). You should be able to keep the stats/combat information for each deity (and its avatar) to a single page. Throw in an illustration and details about the beings history and any relevant artifacts on a second page. Goals/Cult on a third page. Thrall/Prestige Class on a fourth. Minions on a fifth. Realm on a sixth...and possibly Lair on a seventh perhaps? Maybe even include a sample cult headquarters/temple to make it eight pages altogether.

The articles in Dragon magazine use a larger font and fewer lines (80%) than Deities & Demigods layout. So I am guessing you could squeeze the Demonomicon articles into about 7-8 pages if you had too.

So somehow you have to remain true to the history of the Archfiends in DnD while somehow making one or more of the trio of perhaps mutually exclusive camps happy. Won't be easy. You have to have archfiends that can, on their own power and influence, hold infinite planes or layers of infinite planes from true deities and are viewed as largely seperate but equal powers.

A deity is nigh all powerful within their discrete domain, but outside that domain, they recognize that the fiends native there and their rulers are in control. A deity is nigh all powerful in their own discrete domain but Mydianchlarus and the layer of Oinos might as well be the same being, same thing with Demogorgon and his layer of the Abyss, or Levistus with Stygia. On the other hand that deity will have its own general (ie not within its domain) deific power anywhere, while those archfiends might have considerably less outside of their plane.

How to put that into game stats? Especially given the unfortunate precident that we have to go along with for with deity and archfiend stats in 3e? It won't be easy to reconcile those with the archfiends' history in the game, plus some folks want to use them as targets.

Easy peasy...lemon squeezy.

 

[Erik Mona]

Did the designers try to create a book for everyone and in the end come up with a book that ultimately satisfied no one? That seem sto be the only logical conclusion.

The designers designed the book that they were asked to design. Basically, we wrote to a detailed outline provided by Wizards of the Coast. We were able to make plenty of suggestions, and all of the actual design was ours. For instance, they may have said "design four temples for this section," but the decision of what temples to include and how to detail them was up to us.

Eric and I both pushed for disinclusion of the deity stats in favor of more information about myths, relationships, vestments, etc., but this idea was nixed. At the time we started F&P, Deities & Demigods was in the final stages of development and the prevailing opinion at WotC R&D was that gods should be something you could stat up and kill. It became very clear early on that this was not negotiable. If Deities & Demigods had killable gods, by gum so would Faiths & Pantheons.

So we shrugged and gave the publisher what it wanted. As it happens, the rules for statting up gods changed while Deities & Demigods was in editing, so the WotC editors had to rebuild all of our F&P stat blocks anyway. It was not a positive experience, although I am very proud of the writing I did on that book and I feel I was able to bring a fresh approach to some pretty picked-over material.

The funniest thing was the omission of any epic material from the books because WotC wanted the products to be standalone titles - yet how can any of those stats be relevant to non-epic campaigns! You automatically require the Epic Level Handbook to make one iota of use from them!

As I recall, the Epic Level handbook had not been written, or was being written, at the same time we put together F&P, so including a ton of material from that source was never an option.

--Erik

 

[Shade]

Stats or not, for me Faiths & Pantheons has been one of the most enjoyable 3E gamebooks to actually read, so I'd say it's strong on flavor.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

Where is this tidbit from?

The Abriymoch incident is alluded to in the Manual of the Planes.

"Abriymoch's foundation is said to be the grave of a deity slain by Asmodeus." - page 119.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

That leads me on to another pet peeve of mine - Outsiders with Class Levels. Please refrain from using this mechanically lazy and philosophically debateable* approach to outsiders where possible.

Class levels are far more flavorful and interesting than "monster levels." I'd much rather read about a fiend with blackguard and warlock levels than a fiend who simply advances in hit dice.

*Outsiders/Spirits are not free willed beings.

Of course they are. How else do angels fall, modrons go rogue, or demons ascend?

 

[Aaron L]

Corruption.