Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Grover!

Naturally it's an exception when beings who are made of pure good, evil, law, balance, and/or chaos change their alignments - it's an event of similar magnitude to a water elemental becoming a pyromancer. This doesn't mean they have no free will (to the extent of not even being able to have class levels!), only that they behave according to their natures unless given a profound reason not to. Certainly, there's nothing inherit in the nature of evil that would prevent a arcanaloth from learning more about sorcery or a demon from becoming a cultist of Demogorgon - in fact, their natures demand it. I think the option of giving class levels to all sentient creatures is one of the best features of 3rd edition.

Well you are entitled to your opinion, but mechanically it is my opinion that unnatural creatures who advance by Hit Dice, should not gain the possibility to advance via class levels too. You could argue that Dragons would be an exception to this rule since their Hit Dice is intrinsically linked to their physical growth and they are also free willed beings (but even they advance via HD alone). An outsiders power is nothing to do with 'getting bigger'.

A being of utter chaos who succumbs to the temptations of law (for example) is going to be one in a million, but the fact that it's possible at all indicates that they have the freedom of choice, even if it is normally incomprehensible for them to exercise it in such a way. If not, they'd be incorruptible, and that's clearly not the case. Baalzebul was a fallen archon before he was transformed into a baatezu.

I am happy to allow that one in a million outsider to have class levels.

Although its likely they would be regarded as a freak amongst their own kind.

The rules clearly state that creatures with the "always" designator may change alignment, although this is unique or rare. There are also plenty of examples of fiends and celestials with class levels in the books, so your position is really indefensible except as a quirky personal variant.

Its hardly indefensible, given that I am defending it. Just because something is official doesn't mean its the best solution, is your position on deities not having stats indefensible except as a quirky personal variant!?

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

Well you are entitled to your opinion, but mechanically it is my opinion that unnatural creatures who advance by Hit Dice

What is "unnatural?" By whose standard? Are you seriously suggesting that just because something is from another plane it isn't part of the natural order? The inevitables would disagree.

An outsiders power is nothing to do with 'getting bigger'.

Then why do they grow bigger as they advance in hit dice? A balor, for example, becomes Huge when it advances to 30 hit dice; it has everything to do with size, *unless* they're advancing in class level.

Perhaps you're thinking of advancement between castes (for example, an amnizu becoming a cornugon) - that's something of a different matter. I think in such a case advancement by class level would be much more likely than advancement by hit dice, or else the baatezu would risk dropping in hit dice when it was transformed into the "higher" form.

I am happy to allow that one in a million outsider to have class levels.

I'm confused. You're implying that outsiders don't have free will, but a few do out of some mutation or the like? That seems improbable as well as unsatisfying.

Far more likely, if one shows evidence of free will, they all must. This doesn't mean that more than "one in a million" are going to choose to act contrary to their own natures, but it does mean that they're all going to choose whether to be rogues or sorcerers.

I'm not sure how you can justify making them automatons to fate philosophically. How does a rampaging glabrezu choose to turn right instead of left (or vice versa)? How does it decide whether to eat a halfling first and the dwarf second? Who plans out the complete life-paths of all outsiders of a given type, and how do they account for changes non-outsiders may make to this pre-planned destiny? I don't think you've thought out the implications of predestination, or you don't understand what "free will" actually means. If an armanite has the ability to decide on its own whether to gore or use a spell-like ability, it also has the ability to learn how to be a barbarian or a ranger instead of lounging around in the Abyss growing fat on the souls of the damned. If it doesn't have the ability to make decisions on its own, it's going to end up goring when a spell-like ability would make more sense and charging at mortals in an empty field of battle because the mortals in question decided to sleep in that day - unless you're postulating an omniscient puppetmaster who is capable of unerringly predicting the actions of everyone in the multiverse, in which case no one has free will.

Like I said, it's not a defensible position.

Just because something is official doesn't mean its the best solution, is your position on deities not having stats indefensible except as a quirky personal variant!?

I never said deities don't have stats, only that said stats use up large portions of a book that could far more profitably be used in other ways.

You're absolutely right that "official" isn't always best (certainly, the relative power levels of fiend lords and gods is ridiculously off), but since you were quoting the rules at me (putting "always" in bold face) it seemed that this was what you were basing your argument on, so I responded in kind.

In any case, we seem to have reached an agreement of sorts: as fiends are currently designed, they should be able to gain class levels if they want to, and to say otherwise requires quite a lot of reworking of our basic assumptions concerning both their natures and the nature of the cosmology in general.

 

[James Jacobs]

there's slim pickins once you get past Baphomet and Kostchtchie... but there are more demon lords than you can shake a stick at, all the same.

why, Zuggtmoy's new article mentioned at least two that i had never heard of before...

Yup; much in the same way that lumber companies take care to plant new trees as they cut others down, I'm trying to introduce 1 or 2 new demon lords in each of the Demonomicon articles. I figure in about 20 years they'll get their own entries in the Demonomicon.

 

[BOZ]

it's a *good* plan.

when jason is able to clean out his inbox, he will see that i have some plans of my own...

 

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

I liked the beefed up ( templated or addition of class levels ) unique followers in the BoVD. But some were so high in CR that they could just about take out their master on their own - that I didn't like. But I like seeing stats for Demon Lords - a conundrum to be sure.

To reconcile this in my mind, I have decided that the "true" stats for these powerful unique beings have yet to be seen. They may include a "lord/prince" template ( akin to Divine Rank 0 or 1 or something ), and only apply to the true body of the being in it's own realm of power. Beings there are tougher to kill on their own plane, but then they are DEAD.

Differing stats for "Avatars" are easiliy rationalized. The being sends an avatar to another plane with as much power as is deemed necessary. If killed in a CR20 body, he may not be able to manifest an avatar on that plane for another 100 years. If a CR30 avatar is killed, he may not be able to manifest another avatar for 500 years. Or something similar, you get the idea.

These being's realms ( w/ maps! ) goals/plans , followers, worshipper rules, and rivalries are the most interesting content to me. Avatar stats are fun too, as long as that does not comprise the majority of the space devoted to the bieng.

The interative process of creating D&D rules and sourcebooks create many problems when trying to reconcile the resultant differences. But i'll take new rules that are better even if it means invalidating something in a past sourcebook if the alternative is keeping the status quo with rules that have been proved ill conceived ( or received anyway ) - The 3e books of gods probably would have been better received if they had used the EPIC rules in their creation - a book that came out just AFTER those two!!! Anyone planning on using gods as monsters to kill is going to be using EPIC rules for characters!

 

[BOZ]

aha, i missed a creature! the Incubus, from Dragon #54 (Dragon's Bestiary).

 

[Mouseferatu]

Yup; much in the same way that lumber companies take care to plant new trees as they cut others down, I'm trying to introduce 1 or 2 new demon lords in each of the Demonomicon articles. I figure in about 20 years they'll get their own entries in the Demonomicon.

If you wanted to drop in a reference or two to Turaglas ("The Ebon Maw," issue #312) while you were at it, I certainly wouldn't take it amiss.

 

[Bryan898]

Also I wonder does Demogorgon realise he has a dozen Marilith Blackguards (each CR 27) who are each individually more powerful than Graz'zt (CR 24)!

Yeah, funny thing about that, with Graz'zt's AC of 43, DR of 15/+6 (I'd convert to 15/ epic and cold iron), and SR 38, the CR 27 Marilith's wouldn't stand a chance. Graz'zt's sneer (his free action fear aura) would cause them to run away unless they roll a 20 on a save... Even if they did he could cut them to ribbons.

CR's off a bit? Nooooo =P

I actually liked some of the write-ups in the BoVD and could see them as formidable opponents. What I didn't get is why these all powerful demon lords/ archfiends take feats like Vile Martial Strike, or have weapons like a +3 flaming burst greatsword. If you own a layer on the planes I think you qualify for a weapon of epic strength, or at least +10.

 

[Staffan]

So you are okay with the stats comprising about 20/190 pages (as per Faiths & Avatars), just not 80/224 pages (as per Deities & Demigods)...noted.

Well, I'd say it's more a matter of "easier to ignore" than actually being OK with it, but yeah.

At least I'm reasonably sure that when "Faiths of Eberron" comes out (which it eventually will, it's a pretty obvious book to make), it won't have stats for gods given their distant nature in that setting.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey GC!

What is "unnatural?" By whose standard?

Any creature that doesn't age is unnatural. Any creature that is not 'born' is unnatural.

Are you seriously suggesting that just because something is from another plane it isn't part of the natural order? The inevitables would disagree.

I think something that seems to have been forgotten over the years is the idea that many Outsiders are actually spirits.

Then why do they grow bigger as they advance in hit dice? A balor, for example, becomes Huge when it advances to 30 hit dice; it has everything to do with size, *unless* they're advancing in class level.

Outsider Hit Dice has nothing to do with size. Graz'zt is smaller than a Glabrezu, but has far more Hit Dice.

For Outsiders, Fey, (Intelligent) Undead and to a certain extent Constructs, Hit Dice is a measure of inherant power, not mere physicality.

Perhaps you're thinking of advancement between castes (for example, an amnizu becoming a cornugon) - that's something of a different matter. I think in such a case advancement by class level would be much more likely than advancement by hit dice, or else the baatezu would risk dropping in hit dice when it was transformed into the "higher" form.

I think thats one of the great ideas that have been forgotten over the years, although its not something I would implement wholesale, although its probably more predominant in the Lawful Planes than the Chaotic Planes.

I'm confused. You're implying that outsiders don't have free will, but a few do out of some mutation or the like? That seems improbable as well as unsatisfying.

External forces acting upon them rather than internal compulsions.

Far more likely, if one shows evidence of free will, they all must. This doesn't mean that more than "one in a million" are going to choose to act contrary to their own natures, but it does mean that they're all going to choose whether to be rogues or sorcerers.

I'm not sure how you can justify making them automatons to fate philosophically. How does a rampaging glabrezu choose to turn right instead of left (or vice versa)? How does it decide whether to eat a halfling first and the dwarf second? Who plans out the complete life-paths of all outsiders of a given type, and how do they account for changes non-outsiders may make to this pre-planned destiny? I don't think you've thought out the implications of predestination, or you don't understand what "free will" actually means. If an armanite has the ability to decide on its own whether to gore or use a spell-like ability, it also has the ability to learn how to be a barbarian or a ranger instead of lounging around in the Abyss growing fat on the souls of the damned. If it doesn't have the ability to make decisions on its own, it's going to end up goring when a spell-like ability would make more sense and charging at mortals in an empty field of battle because the mortals in question decided to sleep in that day - unless you're postulating an omniscient puppetmaster who is capable of unerringly predicting the actions of everyone in the multiverse, in which case no one has free will.

Thats exactly what I am postulating for Spirits/Outsiders. Only natives of the material plane have 'free will' to decide their ethics.

Like I said, it's not a defensible position.

Either they advance by Hit Dice or they advance by Class Levels. I don't see how you can justify both.

Have you ever addressed the question of how exactly Outsiders gain Hit Dice?

I never said deities don't have stats, only that said stats use up large portions of a book that could far more profitably be used in other ways.

You're absolutely right that "official" isn't always best (certainly, the relative power levels of fiend lords and gods is ridiculously off), but since you were quoting the rules at me (putting "always" in bold face) it seemed that this was what you were basing your argument on, so I responded in kind.

In any case, we seem to have reached an agreement of sorts: as fiends are currently designed, they should be able to gain class levels if they want to, and to say otherwise requires quite a lot of reworking of our basic assumptions concerning both their natures and the nature of the cosmology in general.

Well I'll agree with you that there is probably too much water under the bridge with regards Outsiders and Class Levels to change things at this stage of this edition of D&D. I'll take it, but I don't have to like it. However, don't expect to see me jump into every thread on fiends and belabour the point.