Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[Grover Cleaveland]

There's never been half breeds between ranks in anything I've seen. So no '5 armed Half-Glabrezu/Half-Marilith' examples of brilliant hyperbole will result.

There ought to be, though. Tanar'ri are, in a sense, all unique beings, each capable of evolving into any shape imaginable. In practice, they take on the shapes that have proven most successful in surviving the Abyss and impressing their enemies and potential allies, but there's no real reason the occasional deviant can't take on a unique shape, even if they're of less than arch-demon status.

It's important to note, however, that "true" tanar'ri - those of hezrou status or greater - don't reproduce their own kind. Their offspring are lesser breeds; though they may initially resemble their parents, they will normally conform to whatever shapes are prevalent in the layer they find themselves in. So the offspring of a glabrezu and a marilith might, as it matures, become a succubus, an armanite, or a chasme depending on its environment and personal proclivities. If it manages to evolve into "true" tanar'ri status - and only a few manage such a feat - it might well decide to become some kind of five-armed abomination, though as this is a relatively untested form it might find it inflicts less terror and more incredulous laughter than it might have hoped for. I think there should be at least one, though, since it's kind of a neat idea.

While tanar'ri are all about breeding with anything or everything - chaos spawning chaos, evil turning on and begetting itself - yugoloths generally prefer not to reproduce in that way, and I can easily see nycoloths and arcanaloths (the only two castes that might conceivably create a hybrid form) simply being genetically incompatible. Lesser 'loths always birth mezzoloths, while ultroloths birth arcanaloths.

Baatezu females are sterile, so baby baatezu are out of the question.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey GC!

I think of it a different way - that spirits and souls are part of a natural cycle, as natural as anything else in the D&D multiverse, and the migration of spirits from the Inner Planes to the Material Plane to the Outer Planes is a completely natural one.

Most religions would agree with this, though not using those terms - people die and go to the afterlife because it's natural for them to do so.

You can't use the excuse that just because they exist they are natural. Undead exist but they are not natural.

I think, rather, outsider hit dice isn't strictly tied to size, but it's not true that there's no correspondence at all, or outsiders wouldn't grow bigger as they advanced in hit dice.

Its obvious there is no correspondence amongst demons. However, WotC seem to use the same 'pretend growth' mechanic for constructs, fey, outsiders and incorporeal undead, even though such beings don't actually 'grow' in the traditional sense.

So you would remove all moral culpability from outsiders? Demons can't be blamed for their actions, because they can't help themselves? It wasn't Triel's or Trias' or Lucifer's fault when they fell from grace, but solely the fault of some external force?

Correct.

Even though many outsiders were once mortals with the ability to choose their paths, after death they suddenly become slaves to greater forces with no will of their own?

Yes. Both figuratively (in the sense that some omnipotent being is pulling the strings behind the scenes) and literally (all spirits serve those of the immediate greater station, good spirits do so out of duty and evil ones out of fear).

I can't count how many ways that idea strips the setting and its characters of emotional weight, as well as robbing the DM of many plot ideas - because I ran out of fingers, and calculators burst into sulfurous flames in my presence, and I have sworn on the grave of my mother never to remove my shoes until her death is avenged - but it's a lot.

Nonsense.

It seems to me that this is a completely seperate consideration from whether or not they can choose to take class levels, in any case, since that has nothing to do with what alignment they are (except for a few obvious exceptions, like paladins).

I think you are looking at this backwards. Instead of choosing to become rogues or sorcerors, demons will, given the accruement of enough power, metamorphose into shapes that fulfill that role. You won't have 5th-level Dretch Rogues you'll have Babau. You don't get 3rd-level Bearded Devil Rangers you get Erinyes. You don't get 9th-level Skeroloth Sorcerors you get Arcanaloths!

I'm at a loss to figure out why that would be a problem for anyone. Why not both? In Arcana Evolved, characters can advance by either their racial class or their character class - this is no different. If the character advances purely in demonic power over the course of centuries as it accumulates souls and reputation, you add demon hit dice. If the character decides to study arcane sciences, or devote itself to a deity-like patron, or practice hunting a species enemy, it advances in its character class.

Well I don't want to get into a discussion as to whether or not that idea is inherantly racist (although you can imagine the outcry if someone used that approach with realworld races) as that is another can of worms. I understand the mechanical reasons for it (simplicity for one), but I think its an unnecessary stereotype and something that is much better handled by Prestige Classes like Dwarven Defender and Arcane Archer.

Baatezu (and modrons and archons) really ought to have to rely on their superiors to grant additional hit dice (or to be promoted to higher castes), but they can gain class levels on their own if they accomplish significant deeds. Though they're unaging, most won't have substantial class levels because they're tied to their duties, and one of the tenets of D&D is that you don't reward characters for doing boring things. Some, however - especially erinyes and others permitted the freedom to go off-plane on missions of their own volition - will definitely have class levels.

Tanar'ri gain hit dice by wrecking terror and misery in those around them - they're able to gain in real power simply by convincing their fellows that they have it and having the will or wit to enforce this belief. They also must capture souls. To go to the next level of power beyond a mere demon, they need to begin cults dedicated to them. To transform into a different kind of demon, with no more hit dice, is simpler, just a matter of moving to a different environment and focusing their will and hatred until they adapt to it. This is a slow process, but should be completed in a year or so in most cases. They can change genders in a few days. Demons will often have class levels, though not a lot because adventurers are rare among any group.

Yugoloths need permission from their superiors, and their superiors' superiors, to advance in caste, but they ought to be able to advance in hit dice or class levels on their own in a manner similar to tanar'ri. And yes, they grow larger as they do so.

So basically what you are saying is there is no mechanic for such a thing - its all just arbitrary.

I certainly hope not!

A pity you and your cohorts don't share the same philosophy when it comes to jumping into threads about stats for gods.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Shemmy!

Where else?

I had to ask didn't I!

It's not like the three main fiend races had any sort of truly detailed ecologies before that point. It was fertile ground, and they did a hell of a job detailing it. 'Faces of Evil' was truly awesome.

If this was what they come up with I am glad I passed that one by.

They can mate with mortals if they choose, and as I mentioned before it's rather well established that they can mate with one another within certain guidelines.

The very idea is preposterous on multiple levels.

These are spirit beings, if they are born then whose spirit are they from?

If two Balors could produce a third then every Demon Lord would have a Decillion Balor servants.

The rule seems to be that common ranks can breed among themselves, but not between ranks.

So where are all the male Marilith?

Where are all the baby Balors?

Breaking this are that any lesser yugoloths can breed with one another, but they always produce mezzoloths by these unions.

So where do the lesser yugoloths come from?

There's never been half breeds between ranks in anything I've seen. So no '5 armed Half-Glabrezu/Half-Marilith' examples of brilliant hyperbole will result.

What a pity, I was looking forward to the Book of Infinite Demons where each type crossbreeds and then the crossbreeds crossbreed and so on.

Feel free to ignore it in your own game then. It won't break into your home to oppress you.

I'm simply pointing out the illogic of such an approach. These Planscape writers don't seem to have thought the whole thing through very well.

 

[Shemeska]

If this was what they come up with I am glad I passed that one by.

Your loss. It's an inspired book.

These are spirit beings, if they are born then whose spirit are they from?

Manifestations of an abstract concept don't absolutely have to have a 1 fiend : 1 dead mortal ratio going on. Not sure where you're coming up with that idea.

If two Balors could produce a third then every Demon Lord would have a Decillion Balor servants.

This is a theoretical answer since True Tanar'ri aren't born, they have to work their way up to that station from the lower ranks. Thus, no Balors breeding.

Balors aren't going to take the time to knock each other up and give birth all that often presumably. It's inconveniant to say the very least, plus who wants to give birth to a potential future rival when you're that powerful already. Higher ranks of fiend are probably less and less likely to breed with one another for that reason alone even, it only makes sense.

But as I said, it's not an issue since 'True Tanar'ri' can't be born into rank. So no bred Vrocks, Hezrou, Glabrezu, Alkaliths, Maraliths, Nalfeshne or Balors. They're promoted from the lesser ranks into those forms.

So where are all the male Marilith?

Obviously breeding is out of the question for all female or all male subtypes of fiends.

So where do the lesser yugoloths come from?

They're formed from the promotion of the rank below them, all of whom start off as mezzoloths originally.

Mezzoloths can be born, but the vast majority are formed fully grown from the raw substance of one of their native planes. They emerge spontaneously from the plane itself, plus one seems to form immediately when any yugoloth anywhere dies permenantly. They don't have a direct link to mortal petitioners, but to the more base substance of the plane itself (so there's an indirect link if you please).

I'm simply pointing out the illogic of such an approach. These Planscape writers don't seem to have thought the whole thing through very well.

Your feelings on the line are obvious, spare us further? The PS bashing is getting old.

 

[Aaron L]

Your feelings on the line are obvious, spare us further? The PS bashing is getting old.

So is the stats for gods bashing.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

These are spirit beings, if they are born then whose spirit are they from? If two Balors could produce a third then every Demon Lord would have a Decillion Balor servants. So where are all the male Marilith? Where are all the baby Balors?

They're effectively spawn of the Abyss itself, pieces of raw evil and chaos taken form. Their plane is made of the same spiritual matter they are, and somewhat sentient besides, so this is hardly a stretch.

Remember what I said earlier about true tanar'ri? The offspring of balors are lesser or greater tanar'ri, not more balors - beings of the equivalent power of succubi, nabassu, or the like. Balor status must be earned.

All tanar'ri have the ability to metamorphose their sex within the span of a few days, so any "female" marilith is perfectly capable of becoming a male one. This wouldn't necessarily change their physical appearance, mind - as you point out, they're not biological beings.

Really, it's inescapable. If demons can produce offspring with mortals, and neither gender is sterile, they will produce offspring with one another. The only illogical thing is denying that. In Muslim myth, jinn reproduce sexually - don't you allow that either?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Shemmy!

Your loss. It's an inspired book.

Inspired...possibly. Flawed...definately.

Manifestations of an abstract concept don't absolutely have to have a 1 fiend : 1 dead mortal ratio going on. Not sure where you're coming up with that idea.

What are you on about 'Abstract Concepts'. Outsiders are the souls/spirits of the dead given material form. They are created from individual souls!

This is a theoretical answer since True Tanar'ri aren't born, they have to work their way up to that station from the lower ranks. Thus, no Balors breeding.

Now you are starting to see sense. Thank you.

Balors aren't going to take the time to knock each other up and give birth all that often presumably.

Frankly I think thats one presumption too far for you.

It's inconveniant to say the very least, plus who wants to give birth to a potential future rival when you're that powerful already. Higher ranks of fiend are probably less and less likely to breed with one another for that reason alone even, it only makes sense.

Frankly I don't see how they would have a choice in the matter! The Demon Lords and Princes would command them to breed and swell their armies.

But as I said, it's not an issue since 'True Tanar'ri' can't be born into rank. So no bred Vrocks, Hezrou, Glabrezu, Alkaliths, Maraliths, Nalfeshne or Balors. They're promoted from the lesser ranks into those forms.

The same illogic applies to any type of demon. The entire planes would become one big breeding ground. After a mere century each fiend lord would have a decillion number of each type of subordinate fiend. Which of course would mean the upper planar natives would have to 'get jiggy' with a vengeance just to keep up.

Your feelings on the line are obvious, spare us further?

LOL! Now thats what I call hypocrisy! All we need to do now is work in a crystal pepsi metaphor and we're on the way to Carnegie Hall.

For the record I'm addressing an inconsistency in Planescapes logic. Its a wholly objective point.

The PS bashing is getting old.

I'd like to think of it as constructive criticism so that future generations won't make the same mistakes.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

You can't use the excuse that just because they exist they are natural. Undead exist but they are not natural.

So to you angels, devils, and indeed all souls are as foreign to the proper order of things as walking skeletons? Creatures should "naturally" walk around souless and collapse into oblivion after death? I'm baffled by that sort of attitude.

Its obvious there is no correspondence amongst demons. However, WotC seem to use the same 'pretend growth' mechanic for constructs, fey, outsiders and incorporeal undead, even though such beings don't actually 'grow' in the traditional sense.

But there's obviously a correspondence between size and hit dice in all of these creatures, whether they grow or not. A bigger construct has more hit dice, as does a bigger fey and a bigger outsider.

There's no reason an outsider shouldn't be able to grow. As you point out, certain unique outsiders can have many hit dice and a relatively small size, but this is the exception, not the rule. You can't point out a few exceptions and claim a greater pattern, not when the rule that creatures with more hit dice have a greater size is in the stat block of every non-unique outsider. That's just willful denial.

(all spirits serve those of the immediate greater station, good spirits do so out of duty and evil ones out of fear).

Then they must have free will, or no coersion (neither from ethics nor terror) would be necessary or indeed possible. Outsiders with no free will would do what they were designed to do, whether they were terrified or not. No "good spirit" would have any use for a sense of duty, which is only relevant in cases where they have the option of not being dutiful.

For the record, I'm addressing an inconsistency in your logic.

You don't get 9th-level Skeroloth Sorcerors you get Arcanaloths!

So for you a standard arcanaloth would be a different caste and shape than an arcanaloth who was a 9th level sorcerer? A babau who was a 3rd level rogue would have a different shape than a 0-level one? If they look the same, how is this different from simply gaining levels? If the only difference is what you call it, we really have no disagreement. Feel free to call an arcanaloth gaining a level a "metamorphosis."

So basically what you are saying is there is no mechanic for such a thing - its all just arbitrary.

I'm saying demonic evolution is story-based, as it should be. Not everything should or can rely on dice and pre-determined formulae, or a computer program would be a good substitute for a live GM.

A pity you and your cohorts don't share the same philosophy when it comes to jumping into threads about stats for gods.

You should probably step out of that glass house before you start chucking rocks at people, Krust. You leapt into this one like clockwork of the dramatically leaping kind (perhaps a clockwork grassshopper of some sort).

 

[Shemeska]

What are you on about 'Abstract Concepts'. Outsiders are the souls/spirits of the dead given material form. They are created from individual souls!

It might help if you were at all familiar with the material you keep bashing.

Outsiders aren't all created from individual souls, divest yourself of this idea because it doesn't hold true in every case. Not at all. Many of them are, many of them aren't.

Among the true outsiders, we'll use as an example the trio of main fiend races, they're the physical manifestations of the abstract alignments of CE, NE, and LE. They might spawn from the raw substance of their native plane, they might breed with one another, or they might create the least of their kind from mortal petitioners. Baatezu and Tanar'ri use petitioners for this purpose, though the yugoloths don't.

It's less that the fiends are exclusively created from the souls of dead mortals, they're not, than that some mortal souls happen to closely mirror CE or LE, or NE larvae who can be forcibly molded either way, becoming more like the fiends who recruit the most refined of those souls into their own ranks. The vast majority of them are killed or eaten or never used though, only the mortals whose depravity makes them fit to be turned into the least forms of Tanar'ri or Baatezu. For the Baatezu, lemures will on rare interval spawn from the essence of Baator. For the Tanar'ri, they'll spawn from the Abyss or screw each other or use petitioners to swell their ranks, they're not picky. Yugoloths don't form the least of their kind from petitioners, they have no direct link to petitioners, just to the raw substance of the Gray Waste and Gehenna. No mortal soul becomes a 'loth, though you could look at it that once the plane devours the essence of those mortal souls the worst of all of those mortals gets distilled into newly spawned mezzoloths.

The same illogic applies to any type of demon. The entire planes would become one big breeding ground. After a mere century each fiend lord would have a decillion number of each type of subordinate fiend.

Which is one of the reasons that the Abyss tends to massively outnumber opposing armies of Baatezu in the Blood War. The Abyss in many ways is a giant breeding ground and slaughterhouse all in one, pumping out millions to die senselessly in the Blood War each and every hour of every day.

Which of course would mean the upper planar natives would have to 'get jiggy' with a vengeance just to keep up.

As soon as the Upper Planes are actually at war with the lower planes in some sort of Blood War #2 they'll think of that, but the fiends are quite happily slaughtering one another at the moment thank you, so it isn't an issue. The celestials are quite happy to wait and let them butcher each other without them needing to get involved on any sort of organized scale.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

What are you on about 'Abstract Concepts'. Outsiders are the souls/spirits of the dead given material form. They are created from individual souls!

Outsiders are defined in the MM as beings who were born from or contain the essence of an outer, inner, or transitive plane. In the case of outer planar beings, they're various ratios of good, evil, law, chaos, or balance given solid form - not actually "material" in the sense of the Material Plane, but of a solid spiritual matter that superficially resembles flesh. Some of them are evil (or some other force) refined from mortal souls, the "impure" alignments melted away in the process of advancement. Others were never mortal; some have been around since the planes first began to form, possibly long before the Material Plane was populated. Others are newly spawned as part of the plane's natural process of self-renewal. In all cases, they are living concepts first and souls of the dead at best a distant second.

Now you are starting to see sense.

He's just quoting Faces of Evil, actually. It's much less illogical than you think.

The entire planes would become one big breeding ground. After a mere century each fiend lord would have a decillion number of each type of subordinate fiend.

The Abyss is infinite, as is every outer plane. There's plenty of room. Tanar'ri are more numerous than most other planar races, but this doesn't mean they're any more powerful, any more than the fact that the Abyss has more layers means it's any more powerful than the other planes. Remember, they're Chaotic Evil incarnate, sentient, mobile pieces of the Abyss - they're exactly as powerful as Chaos and Evil is, their collective strength tied to the power of their alignment.

As was mentioned, yugoloths generally don't breed unless they're on a plane far from one of the towers in which they normally artificially create new mezzoloths directly from the raw energy of their planes. Baatezu, modrons, and archons never breed. Presumedly eladrins and guardinals can breed, and slaadi do even more often than tanar'ri - it's one of the primary combat maneuvers of the lower slaad ranks, as you're no doubt aware.