Upper_Krust said:
Any creature that doesn't age is unnatural. Any creature that is not 'born' is unnatural.
I think something that seems to have been forgotten over the years is the idea that many Outsiders are actually spirits.
I think of it a different way - that spirits and souls are part of a natural cycle, as natural as anything else in the D&D multiverse, and the migration of spirits from the Inner Planes to the Material Plane to the Outer Planes is a completely natural one.
Most religions would agree with this, though not using those terms - people die and go to the afterlife because it's natural for them to do so.
Outsider Hit Dice has nothing to do with size. Graz'zt is smaller than a Glabrezu, but has far more Hit Dice.
I think, rather, outsider hit dice isn't strictly tied to size, but it's not true that there's no correspondence at all, or outsiders wouldn't grow bigger as they advanced in hit dice.
External forces acting upon them rather than internal compulsions. Thats exactly what I am postulating for Spirits/Outsiders. Only natives of the material plane have 'free will' to decide their ethics.
So you would remove all moral culpability from outsiders? Demons can't be blamed for their actions, because they can't help themselves? It wasn't Triel's or Trias' or Lucifer's fault when they fell from grace, but solely the fault of some external force? Even though many outsiders were once mortals with the ability to choose their paths, after death they suddenly become slaves to greater forces with no will of their own? I can't count how many ways that idea strips the setting and its characters of emotional weight, as well as robbing the DM of many plot ideas - because I ran out of fingers, and calculators burst into sulfurous flames in my presence, and I have sworn on the grave of my mother never to remove my shoes until her death is avenged - but it's a lot.
It seems to me that this is a completely seperate consideration from whether or not they can choose to take class levels, in any case, since that has nothing to do with what alignment they are (except for a few obvious exceptions, like paladins).
Either they advance by Hit Dice or they advance by Class Levels. I don't see how you can justify both.
I'm at a loss to figure out why that would be a problem for anyone. Why not both? In
Arcana Evolved, characters can advance by either their racial class or their character class - this is no different. If the character advances purely in demonic power over the course of centuries as it accumulates souls and reputation, you add demon hit dice. If the character decides to study arcane sciences, or devote itself to a deity-like patron, or practice hunting a species enemy, it advances in its character class.
Have you ever addressed the question of how exactly Outsiders gain Hit Dice?
Baatezu (and modrons and archons) really ought to have to rely on their superiors to grant additional hit dice (or to be promoted to higher castes), but they can gain class levels on their own if they accomplish significant deeds. Though they're unaging, most won't have substantial class levels because they're tied to their duties, and one of the tenets of D&D is that you don't reward characters for doing boring things. Some, however - especially erinyes and others permitted the freedom to go off-plane on missions of their own volition - will definitely have class levels.
Tanar'ri gain hit dice by wrecking terror and misery in those around them - they're able to gain in real power simply by convincing their fellows that they have it and having the will or wit to enforce this belief. They also must capture souls. To go to the next level of power beyond a mere demon, they need to begin cults dedicated to them. To transform into a different kind of demon, with no more hit dice, is simpler, just a matter of moving to a different environment and focusing their will and hatred until they adapt to it. This is a slow process, but should be completed in a year or so in most cases. They can change genders in a few days. Demons will often have class levels, though not a lot because adventurers are rare among any group.
Yugoloths need permission from their superiors, and their superiors' superiors, to advance in caste, but they ought to be able to advance in hit dice or class levels on their own in a manner similar to tanar'ri. And yes, they grow larger as they do so.
However, don't expect to see me jump into every thread on fiends and belabour the point.
I certainly hope not!
