Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[demiurge1138]

bump

Wait, you want the arguement to start again?

Demiurge out.

 

[BOZ]

it keeps things interesting.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

I agree with this, what I disagree with is that their realms are literally infinite. Even if they were linked to the entire layer it would take infinite intelligence to be able to process the infinite occurances taking place within an infinite space.

The Abyssal layers themselves have infinite intelligence - infinitely vast, rather than infinitely smart. Most have animal-level intelligence, though a few are sentient.

Abyssal lords, who are tied to their layers spiritually, have the ability to tap into the infinite minds of their layers if they're not busy doing anything else. They're probably not able to process an infinite amount of occurances at once, but their layers are, and their layers inform them of important events (like spellcasters trying to open gates). I don't think Orcus is necessarily instantly aware of Sir Gareth Dragonsbane entering Thanatos from the Plane of Infinite Portals - or of Kiaransalee doing the same - but he has the ability to know such things available to him.

Planar rulers rule over infinities, while deities rule over finite regions, which was why the poster who started this particular debate suggested that planar rulers were the more powerful of the two groups. As "rules an infinity" has been the canonical assumption since 1st edition, it's a valid point.

Your point makes little sense anyway. Mephistopheles doesn't control the actions of everyone in his layer either, but he commands them.

The difference is that if Mephistopheles could control everyone in Cania as if they were marrionettes and he was holding the strings, he would do so in a heartbeat. Orcus is a creature of unpredictability, and would soon grow bored and frustrated in such a universe. He likes his animated dead, but skeletons and zombies alone grow tiresome.

Not quite. There is nothing beyond the known parameters of the kosmically localised area. Imagine being on the shore and looking out to the sea, you can still see the horizon but you cannot reach it.

Weird.

Trying to keep a portal open while you ferry in your entire army is ludicrous. For starters the enemy will be able to intercept in far larger numbers. It will take ages for you to get substantial forces through the gate. The enemy will have plenty of time to disrupt/dispel the gate.

The scenario I was suggesting specifically assumed that the gate opened in the infinite space outside the local lord's control. In this case, the enemy wouldn't have any way of knowing about the gate or the invasion - the invader could create its own realm every bit as powerful as the enemy's. That's my problem with assuming infinite wild terrain exists outside an Abyssal ruler's command, which seemed to be your assertion.

If you assume the layers are finite in size, not just the realms, things are different, but this doesn't seem to be exactly what you're suggesting.

I thought it illustrated the point quite well. To reiterate, the primary layer(s) of the greatest demon monarchs/princes will almost certainly never be threatened by enemy armies EXACTLY LIKE the second world war.

I think I explained why the analogy doesn't work - every layer, or most layers, is equally accessible from the Plain of Infinite Portals - which are filled with enormous, undispellable gates that thousands of demons could pour through at a time. There aren't any intermediate layers for the greatest demon monarchs to guard. Orcus can attack (the first layer of) Azzagrat as easily as Graz'zt can attack Thanatos, using the first layer of the Abyss as a staging ground. Naturally they'll have fortresses around most of the major portals, but not an infinite number of them - and even where there are fortresses, they aren't unassailable to a determined foe (just as castles don't necessarily deter invasion in the real world).

Ruling an infinite layer means they have infinite resources and infinite power.

In the same sense that Russia has more oil reserves than Saudi Arabia - they exist, but they're not being exploited to the same degree. The layers are infinite, but they're not infinitely developed. Also, much of the layers might well be empty void, like the regions beyond the land in the layers of Gehenna, or otherwise useless for most purposes. The lords still control them, for all and all of infinity.

Its the closest approximation we know.

I don't see how the amount of time it takes to purge a gelugon of its lower nature relates to how quickly tanar'ri reproduce at all. It might be a guideline for how long it takes a nalfeshnee to become a balor, but that's it.

Tanar'ri have lower standards for promotion than the perfectionistic, bureaucratic baatezu, so manes will become balors more quickly than lemures become pit fiends, but it's still going to take centuries, or millennia, for it to happen.

Unless the superiors, superiors are also there.

They're placing bets, too. They're a race of chaos - they get too orderly, they die out. Demons don't have a rigid hierarchy in that way, anyway. There are the base demons - the manes, dretches, and rutterkin - commanded by babau, hezrou, chasme, or the like. Their superiors are, in no particular order, the balors, nalfeshnee, and mariliths, who work - sometimes - for the lords and princes of the Abyss. But there's no direct supervision - they're told roughly what to do and they decide how to do it their own way. They're not going to be more rigid than that any more than they're going to start helping sick puppies and children or donating to charity.

Thats exactly the point though - its a matter of frequency. Some planes are so violent that demons are few and far between if any exist there at all, but demons are not going to settle in such areas. They may be chaotic evil, but they are not, as a rule, stupid.

Some layers of the Abyss are more deadly than others, but even the safest ones are deadly by the standards of the Material Plane. Unless you know a way of calculating exactlly how deadly the safest place in the Abyss is, you can't claim that demons will be able to reproduce there at a geometric rate.

There a lot of demons. A lot of demons - an uncountable, seemingly endless number. But not so many that it's impossible for the baatezu to defeat them. Part of that's because the war has more to do with belief than numbers - you kill enough, they become demoralized and the whole race weakens. You weaken the forces of Chaos or Evil, the whole race weakens. Take this far enough, and you end up with an entire species too weak to overcome the damage resistance of rival outsider races. They're defeated - they're done. The tanar'ri are thought to have exterminated races in the Abyss before. They destroyed the varrangoin civilization. It can be done.

 

[Shemeska]

Wee! More debate! More chances to see completely made up words like 'kosmically' used!

... something like that. *goes back to writing the next Baernaloth cycle story*

 

[BOZ]

well, they are enjoying it at least, and it is vaguely amusing to watch.

and every once in awhile, they drop a bit of unique insight.

 

[BOZ]

Tanar'ri have lower standards for promotion than the perfectionistic, bureaucratic baatezu, so manes will become balors more quickly than lemures become pit fiends, but it's still going to take centuries, or millennia, for it to happen.

true, but i suspect that far fewer manes make it that far compared to lemures making it all the way (percentage-wise), since i have to assume demons are more susceptible to violent death and other unpredictable factors.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

true, but i suspect that far fewer manes make it that far compared to lemures making it all the way (percentage-wise), since i have to assume demons are more susceptible to violent death and other unpredictable factors.

Outside the Blood War, I'm sure you're right.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey GC!

Quick response, what was it 3 weeks.

The Abyssal layers themselves have infinite intelligence - infinitely vast, rather than infinitely smart. Most have animal-level intelligence, though a few are sentient.

I've never heard such a load of nonsense, added to which there is no precedent that every layer is sentient or even semi-sentient.

Note that the semi-sentient layer in the Gord the Rogue stories Ojukalazogadit did not have a ruler, and no demons lived upon it.

The planar rulers (and deities) may extend their senses across the realm they control, but its not the layer itself reporting back to them.

Abyssal lords, who are tied to their layers spiritually, have the ability to tap into the infinite minds of their layers if they're not busy doing anything else. They're probably not able to process an infinite amount of occurances at once, but their layers are, and their layers inform them of important events (like spellcasters trying to open gates). I don't think Orcus is necessarily instantly aware of Sir Gareth Dragonsbane entering Thanatos from the Plane of Infinite Portals - or of Kiaransalee doing the same - but he has the ability to know such things available to him.

'Tap the infinite minds of their layers' - balderdash. You are making that jive up.

Planar rulers rule over infinities, while deities rule over finite regions, which was why the poster who started this particular debate suggested that planar rulers were the more powerful of the two groups. As "rules an infinity" has been the canonical assumption since 1st edition, it's a valid point.

...and given that we know such beings are not more powerful than deities (as a rule) and never have been, we can easily poo-poo the idea.

The difference is that if Mephistopheles could control everyone in Cania as if they were marrionettes and he was holding the strings, he would do so in a heartbeat. Orcus is a creature of unpredictability, and would soon grow bored and frustrated in such a universe. He likes his animated dead, but skeletons and zombies alone grow tiresome.

So you are saying that Orcus can control everyone in his realm but the equally powerful Mephisto cannot!? Rubbish.

Weird.

Thanks.

The scenario I was suggesting specifically assumed that the gate opened in the infinite space outside the local lord's control. In this case, the enemy wouldn't have any way of knowing about the gate or the invasion - the invader could create its own realm every bit as powerful as the enemy's. That's my problem with assuming infinite wild terrain exists outside an Abyssal ruler's command, which seemed to be your assertion.

The invader could not perceive any space outside the local princes control.

If you assume the layers are finite in size, not just the realms, things are different, but this doesn't seem to be exactly what you're suggesting.

The realms are finite, the layers are infinite.

I think I explained why the analogy doesn't work - every layer, or most layers, is equally accessible from the Plain of Infinite Portals - which are filled with enormous, undispellable gates that thousands of demons could pour through at a time.

...and the entry points onto a respective Princes layers are the first thing they guard!

There aren't any intermediate layers for the greatest demon monarchs to guard. Orcus can attack (the first layer of) Azzagrat as easily as Graz'zt can attack Thanatos, using the first layer of the Abyss as a staging ground. Naturally they'll have fortresses around most of the major portals, but not an infinite number of them - and even where there are fortresses, they aren't unassailable to a determined foe (just as castles don't necessarily deter invasion in the real world).

Orcus cannot attack Azzagrat as easily as the layer in part controlled by a lord. He has no foothold on Azzagrat with which to mobilise his forces, whereas he can use the part of the layer outside the lords realm as a staging ground, then march enmasse against the lords stronghold.

In the same sense that Russia has more oil reserves than Saudi Arabia - they exist, but they're not being exploited to the same degree. The layers are infinite, but they're not infinitely developed. Also, much of the layers might well be empty void, like the regions beyond the land in the layers of Gehenna, or otherwise useless for most purposes. The lords still control them, for all and all of infinity.

The idea of the infinite realm is irrelevant and illogical.

I don't see how the amount of time it takes to purge a gelugon of its lower nature relates to how quickly tanar'ri reproduce at all. It might be a guideline for how long it takes a nalfeshnee to become a balor, but that's it.

Its the closest approximation. Its unlikely that a pregnant dretch (perish the thought) carries around its offspring for that length of time.

They're placing bets, too. They're a race of chaos - they get too orderly, they die out. Demons don't have a rigid hierarchy in that way, anyway. There are the base demons - the manes, dretches, and rutterkin - commanded by babau, hezrou, chasme, or the like. Their superiors are, in no particular order, the balors, nalfeshnee, and mariliths, who work - sometimes - for the lords and princes of the Abyss. But there's no direct supervision - they're told roughly what to do and they decide how to do it their own way. They're not going to be more rigid than that any more than they're going to start helping sick puppies and children or donating to charity.

The hierarchy is based on power, the strong bully the weak into doing their bidding. If Graz'zt tells Demon Prince 'X' to do something and he in turn commands Demon Lord 'Y' who passes orders down to Balor 'Z' who in turn...etc, etc. If Balor 'Z' disobeys that order and goes off to bet on pregnant dretch mud wrestling, Demon Lord 'Y' is going to skin him alive before he in turn gets repremanded by Demon Prince 'X' who himself is afraid of the wrath of Graz'zt.

Some layers of the Abyss are more deadly than others, but even the safest ones are deadly by the standards of the Material Plane.

...and unsurprisingly demons are a lot hardier and tougher than mortals.

Unless you know a way of calculating exactlly how deadly the safest place in the Abyss is, you can't claim that demons will be able to reproduce there at a geometric rate.

We know that demons don't gather in overtly hazardous (to them that is, not visitors) areas.

Which means that the only open hostility will come from other demons.

We know that the various realms of the demon lords, princes and so forth are populated by their servants, who don't butcher each other for the sake of it, and theres no precedent for such action in any published material.

There a lot of demons. A lot of demons - an uncountable, seemingly endless number. But not so many that it's impossible for the baatezu to defeat them. Part of that's because the war has more to do with belief than numbers - you kill enough, they become demoralized and the whole race weakens. You weaken the forces of Chaos or Evil, the whole race weakens. Take this far enough, and you end up with an entire species too weak to overcome the damage resistance of rival outsider races. They're defeated - they're done. The tanar'ri are thought to have exterminated races in the Abyss before. They destroyed the varrangoin civilization. It can be done.

Of course it can be done, and it doesn't require this ethos grinding you tout, to do it. You are simply having to come up with roundabout ways of dealing with the problems inherant in your 'infinite' demons approach.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Shemmy!

Wee! More debate! More chances to see completely made up words like 'kosmically' used!

Actually 'kosmic', is a real word.

You probably got all confused because its not mentioned in Planescape, but if you actually take the time to read some books on the occult* (which is where most of the initial inspiration for D&Ds outer plane cosmology comes from) you might learn something.

*Such as the Encyclopedia of the Occult (by Fred Gettings)...pages 126 and 133 for instance.

... something like that. *goes back to writing the next Baernaloth cycle story*

Drop by anytime. I always enjoy your input.

 

[Shemeska]

I've never heard such a load of nonsense, added to which there is no precedent that every layer is sentient or even semi-sentient.

Then read 'Faces of Evil' because it's flat out stated in there. Would you like the page number? IIRC there's a few other direct references to the idea as well outside of that source.

The planar rulers (and deities) may extend their senses across the realm they control, but its not the layer itself reporting back to them.

According to the Tanar'ri it is. See aforementioned source.

'Tap the infinite minds of their layers' - balderdash. You are making that jive up.

No, not really. I haven't seen Grover/Rip make anything up really this whole 'debate', just instances where you're not as familiar with the sources he's pulling ideas from, or instances where you just don't agree with his take on a topic.

...and given that we know such beings are not more powerful than deities (as a rule) and never have been, we can easily poo-poo the idea.

Except that they have been before depending on the circumstances and where any such deific vs abyssal lord conflict would have taken place. 3.x, with its (albeit lamentable) stance on giving true deities stats, has just taken the opposite stance apparently in order to make archfiends viable targets for PCs. The stance on this has varied between editions and even within editions, but I'll end there because we're already discussed this elsewhere, and I'd rather not revisit that exercise in futility.

So you are saying that Orcus can control everyone in his realm but the equally powerful Mephisto cannot!? Rubbish.

He never said that, read his original comment more closely. He was simply saying that even if Orcus could, he would have no desire to do so given his chaotic nature.

The idea of the infinite realm is irrelevant and illogical.

It's the outer planes, not everything makes sense, nor should it. Not everything is or even should be, nailed down and precisely defined in easy to understand terms. Even if you don't like it, that's the way it is, and that's the way they have been defined as for quite a long time. The realms of the Abyssal Lords are in fact infinite if they manage to exert their control over the entirety of their chosen layer, Graz'zt has three of them under his sway for instance.