J-Dawg said:
Yes, I know that Planescape contributed a lot of material that carried forth into 3e on the other fiends, but my point was that it wasn't slavishly followed. The whole concept of the obyriths, for instance, was a great idea--one of the better ones to happen to demons in years, IMO, and it "retcons" a fair amount of Planescape backstory, or at least makes no reference to it at all.
You've got me confused here. I can't think of what the Obyriths honestly retcon, because it builds off of material that we already had lurking around in the hinted-at prehistory of the Abyss. We already had it developed that the Tanar'ri were not the most primordial of fiends, we had an insinuation of pre-Tanar'ri status for Pale Night and some others, we had the mythology surrounding the Queen of Chaos, etc. FC:I doesn't retcon the primordial Abyss, it puts a rather unique twist upon the creation myth for the Tanar'ri that we already had (the Heart of Darkness mythos) and presents a history that meshes a few tangential items of Abyssal lore into a cohesive thing. It tidies up some holes quite nicely.
I don't have anything bad to say about the way FC:I handled the integration of material from 1e, 2e, 2e Planescape, post-Planescape 2e, and 3e. The material dramatically evolved and developed in 2e, and it has continued to evolve in a positive direction in FC:I, and I adore how they have done so.
Pray tell, what retconned Planescape backstory are you thinking of?
The Nine Hells book also made no mention of the "ancient baatorians", and it completely recast one of the leaders of a circle of Hell (again)--and again--to the book's benefit. It was a much better book because it didn't slavishly follow the path that Planescape blazed, but went off on it's own path.
It didn't really retcon anything majorly either. The Ancient Baatorians simply aren't covered in the book, but in no way does it go out of its way to retcon them out of existance. And if you read between the lines in the writeups for the Dogai, they match rather nicely with some of the 2e lore on the Ancient Baatorians. Beyond that, the frozen city of Kintyre locked in Cania's glaciers was always alluded to be of their construction, and the story that FC:II presents for it is purely legend and self-serving propaganda for the Lord of the 8th.
FC:II simply doesn't address Baator pre-Baatezu, but it does admit that the plane existed prior to their arrival from elsewhere. That alone says something. They didn't (and don't) spring directly from the plane itself, rather they're literally foreign conquerers of the plane from elsewhere on the Lawful side of the planar wheel. LE existed prior to their arrival, and they're not exactly the only or the purest of its incarnations that might be possible.
Virtually all of the prehistory presented in FC:II is intentionally given as mythology that admits up front that it probably has no basis in factual events. It's a self-serving state legend handed down from on high to the masses and made truth by decree. The Lords of the 9 declare this to be their history and the properly authorized truth that you may believe. That sort of tyrannical thought police fits the Baatezu perfectly, and it leaves the fact of the matter a blank spot, and from the depths the Ancient Baatorians are looking back and smiling. So to speak.
The only true retcons in FC:II are a lack of development of the Dark 8, and switching them from being completely independant of the Lords of the 9 (save Asmodeus) to now being also under the authority of Bel who has been reworked to some extent. I'm of mixed opinion on the matter, but it's not a giant thing. Again they didn't so much change things as just not opt to really cover them that much.
Now the replacement of the Hag Countess with Glasya isn't a retcon, it's just further evolution of the material, and the authors of FC:II did it in a way that frankly I like. It comes complicit with tons of plot ideas and intrigue lurking in the wings.
You've yet to hear me whine about FC:I or II retconning anything you notice. They faithfully included the material from PS and other sources and didn't go about randomly retconning or ignoring things. They took what was there and built upon it, and the material evolves. That's good. You'll find more people still bemoaning that Moloch and Geryon aren't Lords of the 9 like they were in 1e than you'll find me complaining about anything in FC:I or II. They were very good books.
