Fighter's Mark makes DM combat less fun

[-Avalon-]

I tend to believe the flavor of the game is to have fun, and in a sense that includes the DM...

Also, I believe the flavor of the goblins is to be almost like kobolds, dancing around and moving confounds their enemy into a lil frustration =)

 

[T-Bone JiuJitsu]

After Mouseferatu's post I sat down and (GASP) re-read the rules a little closer and you are correct.

The fighter can make an "Opportunity Attack" each "Turn" that a different creature provokes. It is not an "Immediate" or "Interrupt" which is limited to once per round, and not on the characters own turn.

The combat superiority allows a melee basic attack as an immediate interrupt in response to adjacent shifting. "Immediate Interrupts" are limited to one per ROUND.

This makes much more sense, and is not as big of a problem as I thought before.

I also like the trick about ready and action that would draw an AO on the characters turn to avoid the AO. Will have to try that.

 

[knightofround]

inati,

I think you're missing the difference between an OA and the immediate reaction basic attack granted by the Fighter challange. Its easy to confuse the two because they both use the same "melee basic attack" wording, but they are very different. I had a PC that tried to abuse this mechanic as well, but I found with a closer look at the wording it doesn't pan out.

Reposting the section:

Fighter Combat Challange

In addition, whenever a marked enemy that is
adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not
include you, you can make a melee basic attack against
that enemy as an immediate interrupt.

Combat Superiority

You gain a bonus to opportunity attacks equal to your
Wisdom modifier. An enemy struck by your opportunity
attack stops moving, if a move provoked the
attack.

The wording in the combat challange is specifically "a melee basic attack" rather than "a opportunity attack. This has both an upside and a downside.

The upside is that the free attack from the challange does not count towards the fighter's 1 OA per turn. So, if a fighter is adjacent to an enemy and that enemy moves without shifting, this provokes an OA. If that enemy enemy attacks an ally, and is still adjacent to the fighter, that can trigger a "challenge immediate reaction" as well. So the enemy could potentially get smacked twice for ignoring the fighter.

The downside is that all feats and abilities that enhance OAs do not enhance the attack granted by the "challenge immediate reaction". This is a good thing imho to prevent the abuse of feats such as Polearm Gambit and Combat Superiority.

So the end result....this is what would happen from my view:
1. Fighter does an AE on five goblins. He misses all of them. All five goblins are marked.
2. All five goblins shift.
3. Fighter gets one "challange attack" against whichever of the 5 goblin he wants. (Irregardless of if they are still in range or not, because the challenge is an interrupt, which technically happens before the shift)
4. No OAs are made, because shifting does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Allowing 9 opportunity attacks to result from *1* attack would be incredibly overpowering. =P If the PC is smart enough to pick up polearm gambit, it would get even more insane.

Another reason why the 9 opportunity attacks doesn't work is because you get only 1 opportunity attack per TURN. The goblins aren't shifting on their individual turns, they're shifting on the FIGHTER's turn. So if a fighter makes an attack and for some odd reason forces multiple enemies to open themselves up to AoOs (which isn't possible, as outlined above) he could only choose one of which to make his OA on.

 

[Kordeth]

inati,

I think you're missing the difference between an OA and the immediate reaction basic attack granted by the Fighter challange.

No, inanti's entirely correct. Read his post again:

shift[/B]. This activates Combat Challenge (ref above). Since Combat Challenge is an immediate interrupt (also above) it is limited to only once per round, as per the rules, so he would get to smack only one creature, even if they all shifted.

Now if the kobolds had all moved, this would draw an Opportunity Attack, which is once per Combatant's turn. So as each kobold moves, it would be hit by an Opportunity Attack, which activates Combat Superiority./quote]

Emphasis mine. You missed that inanti is describing two scenarios, one in which all the marked kobolds shift, and one in which they all move instead.

Another reason why the 9 opportunity attacks doesn't work is because you get only 1 opportunity attack per TURN. The goblins aren't shifting on their individual turns, they're shifting on the FIGHTER's turn. So if a fighter makes an attack and for some odd reason forces multiple enemies to open themselves up to AoOs (which isn't possible, as outlined above) he could only choose one of which to make his OA on.

Note that inanti's example uses kobolds, not goblins. Kobolds shift as a minor action on their turn. Which is a moot point anyways because inanti is talking about opportunity attacks, not Combat Challenge attacks, which are provoked by moving, not shifting, and even goblins can't move on the fighter's turn. If a fighter is surrounded by 9 enemies and each enemy moves away, then yes, the fighter gets 9 OAs, one per opponent.

 

[knightofround]

Ahh, ok, yeah I missed the distinction. I thought he was talking about talking about the fighter making 9 OAs on the fighters turn, rather than 1 OA on each of the 9 goblins/kobolds turn, ASSUMING that the goblins/kobolds/whateverreally decide to move instead of shift.

So yeah, logically the monsters would shift to avoid those OAs (instead taking one immediate reaction challange) instead of full movement.

I could still see the kobolds being crafty though; each one of them shifting backwards one space, only one takes the challenge hit, and then the rest are free to scatter about the battlefield as long as they don't travel through the fighter's threatened reach. =P

 

[inati]

The 9 attack scenario is just theoretical, not something that actually happens I just added 8 possible OAs from 8 opponents, and one combat challenge attack per round for a total of 9 theoretical hits.

If you want an actual scenario, it could go something like:
- 8 Kobolds surround you, all are marked
- a Kobold01 attacks your friend
- Combat Challenge Activates (1st attack)
- a Kobold01 moves away
- OA activates, Combat Superiority kicks in (2nd attack)
- a Kobold02 attacks the same friend
- Combat Challenge already used this round, no action
- a Kobold02 moves away
- OA activates, Combat Superiority kicks in (3rd attack)
- a Kobold02 is stopped in their tracks from Combat Superiority
- a Kobold02 still wants to get away and shifts as minor action (Shifty see MM)
- no Combat Challenge, as already used, no attack
- each subsequent kobold Moves from the fighter
- Fighter makes an OA on each subsequent kobold (an additional 6 attacks, one each for kobold03-kobold08)

Total attacks: 9

If the number of combatants changed, to say 10 kobolds, then theoretically, if each kobold activated an OA, it would be 11 attacks.

The point is, OAs are once for each combatant's turn, but Combat Challenge is only once per round.

 

[Kalbutt]

Hello, I have a question that I didn't see posted in this thread or another about Fighter Features : can a single attack from a monster trigger both Combat Challenge *and* an OA (enhanced with Combat Superiority) ?

For example, a marked monster adjacent to my fighter foolishly makes a ranged attack against one of my allies. The attack does not include me, so Combat Challenge is triggered, and the attack is ranged, so an OA is triggered. Am I allowed to make 2 melee basic attacks in succession (assuming I didn't use any interrupt actions this round), one for the CC feature and one OA ?
Also, I'm not sure if it matters much, but which one would be resolved first ?

 

[Diplomat123]

RAW would support you being able to hit the creature with both as they are both triggered. However that feels very wrong and i would suggest the player is allowed to choose which of his potential attacks to take, keeping the other available for the rest of the monster's turn in case it subsequently tries to shift, move etc.

 

[Nebulous]

Although i understand the mechanics of what is happening here, it wasn't until i saw this thread that i realized how much confusion could arise over this issue. We're talking about two different Fighter abilities with similar wording that do very different things. I'm going to have to make sure the fighter in our group is more aware of this.

 

[MarkB]

Hello, I have a question that I didn't see posted in this thread or another about Fighter Features : can a single attack from a monster trigger both Combat Challenge *and* an OA (enhanced with Combat Superiority) ?

For example, a marked monster adjacent to my fighter foolishly makes a ranged attack against one of my allies. The attack does not include me, so Combat Challenge is triggered, and the attack is ranged, so an OA is triggered. Am I allowed to make 2 melee basic attacks in succession (assuming I didn't use any interrupt actions this round), one for the CC feature and one OA ?
Also, I'm not sure if it matters much, but which one would be resolved first ?

So far as I can see you'd be able to make both, and it would most likely be up to the player to decide which to use first.

The order does matter, because if you use your OA first and do enough damage to drop your opponent, you'll still have your immediate action to use on someone else (and your ability to make OAs against other foes is unaffected). If you use the immediate attack first, then it's gone for the round.