Fighter's Mark makes DM combat less fun

[T-Bone JiuJitsu]

Any other DM's feel that the Fighters Marking ability takes some of the fun out of running monsters in combat?

For example: If I have a bunch of shifty Kobolds, suddenly marked by the fighter, they are now essentially rooted to the ground and forced into a static toe-to-toe hackfest with the fighter. Sure, they can take the opportunity attack to move, but oh no, the fighter can stop them as an interrupt with his challenge.

Goblins, same deal, they can shift on a miss, but the fighter still marks them on a miss, so again, they are stuck.

This is even worse when the Fighter can make an area attack, like Dragonborn breath weapon, or multiclass feat with area spell. Fighter marks a group with area effect, then closes on them.

In 3.X, one of the bad guys could draw the first opportunity attack with a diversion move, freeing up the others to then move without fear of attack (unless Combat Reflexes was in play, but even that had limits.). In 4E, the fighter can make unlimited attacks of opportunity against marked foes. In fact they are not even opportunity attacks, the fighter just gets to attack anytime a marked foe shifts. Opportunity attacks at least had some limitations.

I realize that this is one of the fighters abilities, and part of his fun, but it seems to spoil a lot of dynamic combat movements that could otherwise have taken place.

The only solution I can think of so far is to find a way to push the fighter away from the marked foes. Bull Rush, sliding/pushing effects, etc. But Bull Rush is tough to get on a fighter with decent CON, and forget about it if you're fighting a Dwarf.

 

[OpsKT]

Why are all the enemies apparently charging the Fighter in a small hallway? Can't they go around the fighter?

 

[chaotix42]

Well for one, you can only take one OA per opponent's turn. So if the fighter manages to hit your ranged attack monsters when they attempt to back away, they can then just launch a ranged attack point-blank without fear of further reprisal from him.

Also, even if a fighter has marked a group of enemies and moved amongst them, if they all shift away he only gets 1 attack against 1 target per round, since it is an immediate interrupt. Same thing if the marked foe/s make an attack that doesn't include him - he'll get only 1 attack from Combat Challenge per round.

As a 4e DM I've enjoyed my experiences with the dwarven fighter a friend of mine plays. I really think it's one of my favorite classes in 4e.

 

[Asmor]

Well for one, you can only take one OA per opponent's turn. So if the fighter manages to hit your ranged attack monsters when they attempt to back away, they can then just launch a ranged attack point-blank without fear of further reprisal from him.

Even better: Assume you're going to take the attack regardless, so shoot first, THEN move. Either he doesn't attack you, in which case you're better off than having tried to move and then attack, or he does attack you and then you can move.

I agree though, that in general the fighter does take a lot of the fun out of combat for me. That's good for him, though, he's doing his job, and that's what's fun (or, at least, what should be fun) for him.

Still, it would be a lot more tolerable if not for the fact that he can mark multiple enemies...

 

[FireLance]

Fighters can make unlimited opportunity attacks: correct enough. The fighter can make one opportunity attack against each opponent who moves through his threatened area.

Fighters can make unlimited combat challenge attacks against marked enemies: incorrect. A fighter is limited to one such attack per round since it is an immediate interrupt. Once he attacks an adjacent marked enemy that shifts or makes an attack that does not include him, other adjacent marked enemies may shift or make attacks that do not include him without provoking an attack from the fighter.

So, one adjacent marked enemy can still draw the fighter's combat challenge attack and allow the other adjacent marked enemies to shift out of the fighter's threatened area. This still requires the other adjacent marked enemies to spend a move action, but they may then be able to attack with their remaining standard action.

 

[chaotix42]

Even better: Assume you're going to take the attack regardless, so shoot first, THEN move. Either he doesn't attack you, in which case you're better off than having tried to move and then attack, or he does attack you and then you can move.

Heh, that's a good idea: provoke the OA before moving so I get a chance to move. I don't think I'll be able to trick my fighter too many times with this, but you can bet I'll try.

EDIT: And then, that one time he doesn't take the OA, the monsters will just stand there! *derisive snort*

 

[Iron Sky]

In 4E, the fighter can make unlimited attacks of opportunity against marked foes. In fact they are not even opportunity attacks, the fighter just gets to attack anytime a marked foe shifts. Opportunity attacks at least had some limitations.

Characters only get one immediate action per turn, so only one attack per turn when an enemy shifts if the fighter hasn't used up his immediate action doing something else first.

Edit: Jeezus, ninja masters!

 

[Staffan]

You appear to be making a mistake I've seen a lot of people make: confusing the attack granted by the fighter's Combat Challenge ability and an Opportunity Attack. They are not the same.

So a marked opponent that's next to the fighter can shift away, which would trigger the attack from Combat Challenge, but since that's not an OA the "stop moving" feature from Combat Superiority wouldn't trigger (and neither would the additional Wisbonus to hit). Of course, for most opponents, the fighter could then just move after and attack/mark them again on his turn, but kobolds can shift, then move, and then attack.

Also, since the attack from Combat Challenge is an immediate interrupt and not an opportunity action, you only get one per round.

 

[inati]

As others have said Combat Challenge is only once per round, so a swarm of shifty kobolds could easily get past a fighter.

Combat Superiority, which stops monsters in their tracks when a fighter hits with an OA, is different than Combat Challenge. Since OAs can be done once per each individual combatant's turn (I think). This is what makes the fighter really sticky.

Instead of trying to find a brute force way to deal with the Fighter, I would suggest thinking outside the box.

Nothing says that the monsters are so dumb that they fight to the death, or that they are incapable of strategy. If the kobolds are having a hard time getting past the fighter, have them retreat to another room and lay an ambush, or move to a chamber where they can more easily move around the fighter in front. Remember, the monsters live in the dungeon, and they probably had to kill things to clear out enough room for their living space. They should know their surroundings intimately, and thus will also know where best to fight.

For example, kobolds are small and weak, and other monsters probably love to use them as Dungeon Snax (tm). To combat this, they could have dug small one square pit traps in certain rooms that they can lure monsters (and adventurers) into.

Since the Fighter is a melee class, he'll want to close in as fast as possible, so his turn will most likely go:
1. See Kobolds
2. Move 5 squares towards kobolds
3. Charge kobolds

Now, if we bake some cunning with a dash of dungeon ecology into those kobolds, we get a turn that goes:
1. See Kobolds
2. Move 5 squares towards kobolds
3. Charge Kobolds
4. Fall into pit trap
5. Kobolds laugh their asses off as they ignore the now isolated fighter

If the PCs don't go for the bait initially, the kobolds could go about roleplaying that they look extremely frightened, "surrender" to the big bad adventurers, grovel on the floor, and wait for the PCs to fall into a pit, and then attack.

Fighting on their home turf is probably the biggest advantage mosters enjoy, so it's up to the DM to really get creative and utilize that fact.

 

[T-Bone JiuJitsu]

Some replies have suggested that the fighter can only attack one opponent/kobold per turn, thus allowing the others free reign to move away. That is not correct, as someone pointed out.

That Combat Superiority attack against marked foes that are shifting is an interrupt that can be used once per turn. But.. each provoking creature counts as a new turn, so each would in turn provoke an attack on themselves on their turn as soon as they shift.

Assuming that a fighter could theoretically be surrounded by 8 kobolds maximum, that fighter could conceivably get a basic attack on all eight, on each one's turn if they were all marked and they each shifted on their turn.

What if each of those 8 kobolds fired their bow/crossbow while adjacent to the fighter, drawing an "Opportunity Attack", then shifted, drawing a Basic Attack. That would be 16 additional attacks the fighter could make outside of his normal turn. ...I know, an unlikely scenario, but still...

Someone did point out correctly that these are NOT "Opportunity Attacks" and thus the fighter would not stop their movement, but would still get that basic attack.

My main point is not Fighters Vs. Kobolds, or 10' corridors. It is that it seems that 4E put alot of effort into creating dynamic and interesting combats, with lots of movement in combat being a big part of that. Then they add in a class feature that shuts a good sized chunk of that movement down. In a party with more than one fighter, melee combat will be locked down even worse.

As the DM, I've got all these shifty toys, but the fighter wont let me play with them.