Fighter's Mark makes DM combat less fun

[cheshire_grin]

Hello, I have a question that I didn't see posted in this thread or another about Fighter Features : can a single attack from a monster trigger both Combat Challenge *and* an OA (enhanced with Combat Superiority) ?

I would say yes. Neither Immediate Interrupt nor Opportunity Action specifies that a single action cannot trigger both, as far as I know, so this particular action would result in both an OA and a CC.

Order of action is irrelevant since they are both identical attacks; the player can specify or just roll both attacks simultaneously.

 

[cheshire_grin]

The order does matter, because if you use your OA first and do enough damage to drop your opponent, you'll still have your immediate action to use on someone else (and your ability to make OAs against other foes is unaffected). If you use the immediate attack first, then it's gone for the round.

Ah, that's an excellent point.

 

[Asmor]

Indeed, this has been a very enlightening thread. In particular, I'm not sure if I was aware of it before or not, but I'd completely neglected the fact that the fighter's Combat Challenge attack could only be used once per round. That certainly changes things a lot.

 

[Kalbutt]

So far as I can see you'd be able to make both, and it would most likely be up to the player to decide which to use first.

The order does matter, because if you use your OA first and do enough damage to drop your opponent, you'll still have your immediate action to use on someone else (and your ability to make OAs against other foes is unaffected). If you use the immediate attack first, then it's gone for the round.

Good point...
Now for a little nitpicking on the 'flow' of the action : if (as a DM), I allow the fighter in this situation to make his OA first, but he totally intends to see the outcome of his attack to decide afterwards if he uses his interrupt, he would then make an attack based on a trigger which occured before his OA, so technically isn't the occasion lost ? After all the trigger has come and gone since he made an action since then.

I'm not sure what I would allow : this particular 'retro-deciding' is explicit to a few cases only (Sneak Attack or Hunter Quarry).

Also the situation does not seem to be so far-fetched...

Any thoughts on this ? At the time of the trigger, would you, as a DM, force your PC to choose the attack(s) he wants to make ? Would you give him the choice between the OA and the CC interrupt or allow the two attacks ? And in this case, will the player have to announce them first ?

 

[eamon]

I also like the trick about ready and action that would draw an AO on the characters turn to avoid the AO. Will have to try that.

This is an annoying tactic (out of game), and I'd use it sparingly. It's annoying because initiative order changes, which is a hassle. If you do use it, make use you're being fair about the ready trigger - you need to trigger on something concrete, so you need to predict what your opponent will do, which isn't easy. Secondly, it's a reaction, so if your opponent is nasty, he might take an action that invalidates or makes less attractive your action.

There's also a fundamental imbalance here, which a DM should definitely not abuse: you as a DM know what the PC's are triggering their readied actions on, but you might feel it fair to keep your triggers secret. That makes for a metagame imbalance which you really want to avoid. Personally, if this were to come up for me, I'd at least announce that the critter is holding back waiting for the right moment - let the PC's note the delay/ready. Perhaps a perception or insight check (vs. bluff?) as a minor action could be allowed to reveal what it's looking at, if not the precise trigger.

The single melee basic attack just isn't this big a problem, in most cases the monster is better off just risking it. Why would you ever risk both an opportunity attack and a combat challenge attack? If you wish to make a ranged attack, then shift away first, then fire your weapon. You might get hit, but you will not be stopped, and you can then use your ranged power safely.

Technically, if you are next to a fighter and marked, and you use a ranged power to attack an ally of the fighter, you will provoke both the OA and the combat challenge attack. Rather than forbidding the fighter from (ab)using that, I'd prefer not running my critter with such bad tactics - why would you use your ranged power next to a fighter if you can just shift away? If you can't shift away, then the critter might (deservedly) suffer for the disadvantage.

 

[eamon]

Any thoughts on this ? At the time of the trigger, would you, as a DM, force your PC to choose the attack(s) he wants to make ? Would you give him the choice between the OA and the CC interrupt or allow the two attacks ? And in this case, will the player have to announce them first ?

My basic instinct is to avoid imposing odd requirements on game flow without good reason, and so would be to allow you to choose to take the CC when the matter comes up - i.e. after the OA is resolved - since that's simpler.

In comparison, if two non-fighters can take an OA vs. a provoking creature, and the first strike reveals some particularly nasty consequence of hitting the creature would you force the second player to make the OA anyhow?

 

[ExploderWizard]

So far for us marking in general has caused combat to be less fun for the DM and the players. Too much bookkeeping . Getting rid of all the buffs to reduce this stuff was great, but then they had to replace it with something just as annoying.

 

[Nebulous]

So far for us marking in general has caused combat to be less fun for the DM and the players. Too much bookkeeping . Getting rid of all the buffs to reduce this stuff was great, but then they had to replace it with something just as annoying.

I would generally agree, except that we're running a miniatures heavy game and we have great markers for conditions. It's all done visually, so the only bookeeping is to remember to roll for a save, or to remember that a condition is over at the end of a turn. In that respect, i find it much easier than 3e.

 

[Asmor]

In my experience, it hasn't been that difficult to remember who's marked. If there's ever any question, I ask the fighter if he marked someone on his last turn or not. I could see it getting confusing with multiple defenders, though, and ditto when it comes to warlocks, since their curse persists and can be applied to multiple monsters.