Fighting a dragon (3.0)

[Xarls Taunzund]

I'm sure the dragon has a huge reach and probably multiple attacks of opportunity

This is not something you will have to worry about, as the only way I know of to get extra AoO's is Combat Reflexes, which is based of of Dex bonus, and dragons have no Dex bonus. Period.

 

[HeavyG]

The reason to maximize is not to max the caster level check but to max the duration of 1d4 rounds of supression.

But the 1d4 rounds suppression only works on permanent magical items that are specifically targeted by a dispel. Why would you need to do that ? Isn't it more important to dispel the dragon's protective spells ?

"- If your DM hasn't changed Harm, use it! If you get over the DR of the dragon (which might take several tries), the dragon will be done for. Usually a cheesy tactic, but against that enemy, you'll need it."

While our DM has not nerfed the harm spell, we doubt that the dragon will ever allow the cleric to get close enough to touch him. If the cleric tries that, I'm sure the dragon will grab him.

Grab him to prevent him from delivering a touch spell ?

If your DM hasn't nerfed harm, this dragon is as good as dead. Just have the cleric prepare more than one Harm so he eventually gets through SR.

(And dragon SRs are not than powerful. You can assume that they'll make their saves, but no dragon has that high of a SR)

You need more than that. If you only have one elemental protection, you could be in a world of hurt if the dragon uses quickened area dispel magic followed by the breath weapon.

At that level, dispel magics are not significant as they have only a 10% chance of working against a 18th level caster. The dragon could use a greater dispel, then breathe though, if hasted, which he will be. Speaking of which, starting the battle with a slow spell to automatically dispel any Haste effect is a good idea.

Also, if the dragon keeps using his actions to dispel your magic or to recast his buffs, you win. Also, great call on the counterspells, Auraseer.

This is not something you will have to worry about, as the only way I know of to get extra AoO's is Combat Reflexes, which is based of of Dex bonus, and dragons have no Dex bonus. Period.

An average dragon has a dex of 10. Exceptional dragons could have a dex anywhere from 3 to 18.

Also, a dragon could use a magical item or cat's grace spell to up his dex and make combat reflexes worthwhile.





Other tricks :
- You should use Dimensional Anchor to make sure the dragon won't flee and come attack you when you won't be ready for it.

- Assuming the dragon will have room to fly about, get some missile weapons in case he stays far away, lobbing damaging spells. That means lots of Greater Magic Weapons (on your bows and on at least 50 arrows per warrior-type character).

- You need to make everyone immune to fear. Heroes's Feast works great for that.

 

[Xarls Taunzund]

At that level, dispel magics are not significant as they have only a 10% chance of working against a 18th level caster.

That is what greater dispelling is for.

 

[HeavyG]

That is what greater dispelling is for.

Which I mentioned in the phrase right after the one you quoted.

You can't quicken a greater dispel magic though.

Hell, a dragon won't quicken any spells because they cast as sorcerers anyway.

They can quicken spell-like abilities though.

 

[TuDogz]

If you have access to 3.0 Harm, work at getting the cleric close enough.

You might cast illusions on all the characters so they all look identical, then mirror image everybody. Every round you make the dragon waste solving problems is one he can't use to kill you and it makes strategy hard if the dragon doesn't know what its fighting. True seeing can block this but I haven't fought many dragons that use it since they can already see invisibility. This technique finds uses for lower level spell slots.

Find a way to obfuscate and Harm.

Hell, add the illusion to your goggles. The dragon will see 20 copies of Keanu Reeves in long black leathers, shades and laugh himself silly. Psy-Ops.

 

[AuraSeer]

However, while we wear the goggles, we cannot be healed by magical healing. so, as soon as someone takes damage, he/she will have to spend a standard action to remove the goggles in order to be able to be healed.

Have everyone remove their goggles just before combat. If your mage is worried about failing the first Fort save, stick him with a dagger to suck up some of the temp hit points.

You shouldn't have to worry about exploding once the fight starts, because you're liable to get hurt faster than you heal.

 

[Sinjin the Rogue]

"Have everyone remove their goggles just before combat. If your mage is worried about failing the first Fort save, stick him with a dagger to suck up some of the temp hit points.

You shouldn't have to worry about exploding once the fight starts, because you're liable to get hurt faster than you heal."

it's funny that you should mention that because when my wizard, with the knowledge of the planes skill of 29 performed a knowledge check, I learned of the effects of the plane and suggested that we stick each other with daggers to prevent death. (this was before we learned of the protection spell) Later, I learned that there are some NPC's who use devices that duplicate the damage effect in order to avoid exploding. It was rewarding to learn that sometimes, insight is right on the money.

 

[Wish]

My take on this is first to emphasise two things that others have said, disagree with one poster's comment, and then add one more bit of insight.

First, dispel whatever magic he has. You must do this, or you're dead. Haste is the most critical thing to dispel, so consider using a slow to do it automatically. But you're also in big trouble if the dragon has boosted his AC by 18 points or so with spells like shield, cat's grace, shield of faith, and mage armor. You must dispel it's magic. Thankfully, you're probably a higher level caster than it is, so a greater dispelling should do a good job. Two greater dispellings is better. Or a disjunction, if you're not worried about treasure (cheesy as can be, but it works).

Second, harm is your friend. Use it and abuse it. If you have spell storing items, put harm in all of them, let the non-cleric PCs do some harming.

Now to disagree. You are not helpless before its attacks, AC does matter (especially in light of my tactic below). Now, if the best AC in your party is a 33, you're helpless, but if you've got people who are playing a serious AC tanks (in the high 30's or 40's), you've got something to work with. Add shield spells though spell storing items or potions. Add haste. Add defending weapons, Expertise, or fighting defensively. Get yourself up into the high 40's or 50's, and all of a sudden even a dragon is going to start missing sometimes. Especially if the dragon isn't quite as buff as he's used to.

My addition. Debuff the dragon. I don't mean just by dispelling him, I mean by seriously powering down his ability to hurt you. Start with energy drains and enervations. They stack, and they allow no save. Pile on any beneficial metamagic you can think of. If you beat the SR, the dragon loses saves, attack bonus, skills (including concentration which might be critical), and most importantly high level spell slots. With luck, you could potentially put 20 negative levels on the fellow in the first round. Ok, that would require some really high rolls for SR and damage, but it could be done. The only potential problem with this is the positive material plane. I don't honestly know whether or not it will interfere with these spells, but your +29 knowledge character should. Other good options for debuffing are low level spells like slow. You can quicken them and toss them off as an afterthought to whatever your _real_ action is for the round. Yes, the dragon will probably make the save, but it only needs to fail once to completely turn the tide of the battle, and it costs you nothing.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

TuDogz' advice was good. Pretty much assume as a spellcaster than 90% of what you throw at him will be useless. Assume he'll make every saving throw and that half of your spells will be stopped outright by SR. Also remember that an Ancient Red casts as a 15th-level Sorcerer, except he can pick Cleric spells like Heal, so any obvious vulnerabilities will be covered by his spells. To top it off, this dragon will have INT, WIS, and CHA all in the low 20s, so the DM should play him SMART. You won't just be facing him, you'll be facing the preparations he's made, the allies he brings along, and so on.

The dragon's big drawbacks:
1> Horrendous Touch AC. In 3E this was crippling thanks to all those saveless touch spells. In 3.5E, most of those have saves and/or have weaker effects.
2> Big size. In confined areas you can use this to your advantage; in open areas it just means they have more use for Reach.
3> DEX of 10. No need to worry about Combat Reflexes or anything. Incidentally, this is the first thing I changed IMC; most of our dragons have DEX of 18 with lower STR/CON to compensate.
4> And the biggest one: no matter what he does, the dragon is only one creature, capable of making only one offensive action per turn. (Well, two in 3E using Haste, or if he uses Quicken anything). If you can endure that one attack, you're safe for a turn. He won't be Readying many actions because of this, and if you set yourself up to counterspell him you can greatly improve the group's odds.

The bigger question is, what plans are YOU making? If that dragon is flying, stoneskinned, hasted, displaced, improved invisible, with Protection from Good and a few elemental protection spells up, how exactly are you going to stop it from just strafing you to death with hit-n-run attacks? As an individual you might have True Seeing on, but what about the rest of the group?

One correction to TuDogz' advice:


You can't Maximize a Dispel. A caster level check isn't a random numerical effect; it's like saying you can't use Maximize to guarantee an attack roll of 20 on a touch attack. This has been clarified several times, although I don't have a link offhand.
Also, if the dragon is smart he'll have Mirror Image or Displacement or something like that that adds a miss chance. If you blow your one 9th-level Chain Dispel on the wrong target, you're hosed.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

This is not something you will have to worry about, as the only way I know of to get extra AoO's is Combat Reflexes, which is based of of Dex bonus, and dragons have no Dex bonus. Period.

The DM can always change that. Period. End of Paragraph.

Actually, It's the thing I would do if I really wanted to get the players (which would be the case If I were setting them up a dragon): Cover the very weaknesses they are likely to exploit.