Fighting a huge dragon (my players stay out, BADD feel free to help)

[Nareau]

Let's say a huge creature with 10' reach attempts to grapple a human wielding a longsword. They are 10' apart. Does the human get to make an AoO against the huge creature? I'm thinking not, but I just want to make sure I'm right. I don't want my players saying, "Wait, I slash at his claws!" whenever my big bad tries to grapple a PC.

Second, why does the SRD say that dragons prefer not to grapple? It seems to me that larger creatures would want to grapple as much as possible. Especially dragons. They get to make a lot of attacks with natural weapons. They're most effective when they can make a full attack on someone. And if they're not grappling, the PC's can easily run away. Not to mention the +8 that huge creatures get to grapple checks.

And for anyone wanting to help out with creating a TPK, I'm looking for tactics for a huge young-adult red dragon going after a party of 4 PC's (around 10th level). The dragon is unfamiliar with the caverns that the PC's have retreated to.

Thanks!

Spider

PS--Just kidding about the TPK. Reviewing the dragon's stats makes me think that the PC's are totally doomed. But I really want to avoid a TPK, so I'll probably run this dragon as the "fly away, live to fight another day" type. Whatever tactics the dragon uses, she'll want to kill the party's druid first.

PPS--This is kinda urgent. We're playing at 7:00 EST 6/19/03.

Spider

 

[Hypersmurf]

Have the dragon cast Wall of Thorns!

Seriously, though - the AoO is provoked because to grapple, you must move into your opponent's square. Your reach is irrelevant.

However, if you take a -20 on your grapple check, you only use a limb to grapple - you might get away with using Reach there. I wouldn't guarantee it, though. The FAQ sort of makes up new rules for grappling at -20.

One disadvantage of grappling is that you no longer threaten an area, which means the dragon can't use its reach to full advantage.

-Hyp.

 

[Nareau]

Heh. That makes me laugh.

Can you cite a source for for this?

The grappling rules in the PHB (137) specifically say that "Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies, but not from your target." Not to mention that the AoO is provoked before you even hit your target with the touch attack.

Spider

 

[Hypersmurf]

Can you cite a source for for this?

Oops! You're right, I was misremembering.

Let me look up the FAQ and get back to you.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This is the closest relevant FAQ entry...

There is no set limit to how far away a spellcaster can be
when delivering a touch spell, but the basic requirement is
being able to reach into the space the creature occupies. For
example, a human occupies a 5-foot space. Thus, a foe must be
able to reach into that space to deliver a touch attack, even if a
piece of the human’s equipment (such as 50 feet of dangling
rope or a manufactured reach weapon) sticks out of the space.
A creature with natural reach is an exception to this rule—
you can use a touch spell against such a creature by touching
one of its natural reach weapons, even if its body is out of your
reach. Such a tactic might require some preparation, however.
If a creature can reach you with a natural weapon (such as a
bite, claw, or tentacle), you can ready an action to use a touch
spell against that natural weapon when it is used to make a
melee attack against you.

Extrapolate as you will

-Hyp.

 

[Al]

Probably easier to take the Snatch special dragon feat (p. 62, MM) to avoid controversy. It effectively allows a free grapple attempt with no AoO if the dragon hits normally with a bite or claw.

The -20 rule, IIRC, refers to grappling and doing other things. Obviously, he couldn't use his claw or mouth (though I'd probably allow a use of his BW), but other than that he can act normally with a -20 to his grapple check.

 

[Nareau]

I'm a little confused with the snatch ability:

The way I read it, snatch only works against creatures 3-4 sizes smaller than you. Since the dragon is huge, it would only work against small or tiny creatures.

At any rate, this is a creature from a module, and it already has the snatch ability. I was actually thinking about replacing it with something more useful, like wingover.

Spider

 

[AuraSeer]

Second, why does the SRD say that dragons prefer not to grapple?

Partly it's for flavor. Dragons are more dramatic and awesome when they swoop down from the sky breathing fire, rather than wrestling like an overgrown kid in the schoolyard.

Mostly it's because grappling restricts their options. If the dragon stands still to grapple, he can't move around and use his environment to best advantage. That's very significant, since most dragons can live in areas inhospitable to others, and have special abilities that they can use to manipulate the environment. (The lair of a red can have active lava flows or boiling sulfuric springs, or just great big bonfires if it wants 'em.) For dragons who cast spells, a grapple also limits its available spell selection-- preventing everything with S components-- unless it has spent a feat on Still Spell.

Don't forget that dragons are smart enough to use magic items from their hoard. You can't quaff potions, fire wands or staffs, or use most wondrous items if you're tied up in a grapple.

Finally, dragons don't usually like to take risks with adventurers. Proud though they are, they'd almost always rather flee than die. If one of the puny mammalian bipeds gets in a lucky shot, the dragon will want to be free to get away, without first having to disentangle itself from a wrestling match.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The way I read it, snatch only works against creatures 3-4 sizes smaller than you. Since the dragon is huge, it would only work against small or tiny creatures.

Yes and no.

Snatch has two parts - it acts like Improved Grab, and under some circumstances it allows you to deal automatic damage each round.

The Huge Dragon could use Snatch on a halfling (Small) to combine a grapple attempt with his bite attack and not provoke an AoO. It then proceeds to deal auto-bite (or double-bite) damage reach round.

The Huge Dragon could use Snatch on a human (Medium) to combine a grapple attempt with his bite attack and not provoke an AoO. However, it doesn't deal auto-damage each round - it must make its grapple checks or attack rolls as normal.

-Hyp.

 

[Nareau]

Huh. OK. Thanks for that clarification. This is a dragon from a module, and the snatch ability is written incorrectly there (it suggests that it ONLY works against tiny or small creatures).

Spider