D&D 5E Fighting Style Balance: Offense vs. Defense

Offense vs Defense

  • Offense should be better

    Votes: 6 16.7%
  • Defense should be better

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • They should be as equal (lean offense)

    Votes: 18 50.0%
  • They should be equal (lean defense)

    Votes: 5 13.9%

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Thanks for the replies. I think I didn't make part of my question clear enough. I'm thinking about the benefits of choosing a shield over choosing a two-handed. The comparisons I was looking at was to compare a sword and board against AC X and the greatsword against AC X+2. The jump from 1d8 to 2d6 is a big one. Is it too big? Not big enough? I'm reminded of when I started playing WoW, and my friends told me to go two-handed at low levels because the benefits from a shield were low at low levels. I wouldn't want that choice to be made.

I found the discussion about what's fun for the player to be interesting. Value aside, offense is fun. Defense is passive and less fun. So should choosing defense be better mechanically to make it more enticing?


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I did an analysis. The sword and shield fighter starts off better than the GWF, about 5% to 12% better at level 1 depending on if plate or chain mail. This gain gradually disappears by level 17 where the 2 virtually fight equal.

Magic weapons and armors and shields can skew the comparison. Also other fighter abilities can skew the comparison a bit.

*keep in mind this is pitting 1 fighter against the other. I would still make the case that the great weapon fighter is better against monsters but that's a different question.
 

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Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
In a straight comparison, I would expect the defensive fighter to handily defeat the offensive fighter, because defensive fighters are pretty much only good against other fighters while offensive fighters are equally good against everyone. To complete the triangle, shield should beat greatsword because greatsword beats staff and staff beats shield.

This is an interesting point. It slightly assumes defenses are against weapons (AC, resistance vs. B/P/S, etc.) and not generic (resistance vs. all, save bonus, temp HPs), but that makes sense from what you can do martially.

So facing monsters, if a defense will be applicable only about 1/2 as often as an offense, it should be twice as powerful. This will balance them in the normal GvE play of the game. It will mean that all else being equal, a fighter with a defensive fighting style, since it will likely apply against what another martial character is doing, should handily defeat an offensive based fighter. Anything else, combined with the less general applicability of the defense, would be significantly underpowered in general play.

Mind you, the same is true though to a lesser extend with offense. For example, melee is not as generally applicable as ranged (some actions lost moving, not against those with some other movement capabilities like flying, loss of offense if backing off due to badly hurt), so melee should do more than ranged.

Tacking on my earlier teamwork based features edge, and it seems that there are clear guidelines how to balance these out. It's not just power, but also how applicable they are in Group vs. Environment play. PvP really has nothing to do with it.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I did an analysis. The sword and shield fighter starts off better than the GWF, about 5% to 12% better at level 1 depending on if plate or chain mail. This gain gradually disappears by level 17 where the 2 virtually fight equal.

Magic weapons and armors and shields can skew the comparison. Also other fighter abilities can skew the comparison a bit.

*keep in mind this is pitting 1 fighter against the other. I would still make the case that the great weapon fighter is better against monsters but that's a different question.

My own experiences are vastly different than what you are suggesting in regards of GWM vs. dueling style. In play buffing the GWM character is usually a force multiplier, getting more out of it than other weapon wielders. Bless, bardic inspiration, self-buffs like Battlemaster's Precision or Champion's extended crit range (which helps gives bonus action attack).
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
My own experiences are vastly different than what you are suggesting in regards of GWM vs. dueling style. In play buffing the GWM character is usually a force multiplier, getting more out of it than other weapon wielders. Bless, bardic inspiration, self-buffs like Battlemaster's Precision or Champion's extended crit range (which helps gives bonus action attack).

So you didn't read my post did you?

I suggested the GWF (not GWM) was better against monsters. I didn't go into all the details but I suggested that for the exact reasons you are mentioning.

I mean dang...
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
So you didn't read my post did you?

I did read your post, just misread it. My mistake, sorry. You mentioned GWF which I took mentally as GWM. None of the other details were specific to GWF but not GWM; even "great weapon fighter" can be interpreted whatever way the reader was expecting.

Still my mistake, I should have understood from thread context even after confusing the acronym.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Goal: It falls down before i do. So resource trade is damage to zero on each end, as there is no penalty for mostly dead.
I have actually been arguing for more impairments on normal adversaries or enhancement on pcs with enemies are below half hit points ... encourage pcs spreading out the damage instead of so much focus fire.
 

Only comparing the fighting styles, I would have to say they should be roughly equal and for the most part they are. Some are better than others during different points and some are steady.

My general rule if thumb is a party needs enough offense to over come challenges in less than 5 rounds(kill it, force a retreat, stop the siege engine) and enough defense to stay up for 5 rounds without interfering with offense.
Repeat this 8 times over while multiplying short rest resources by 3 and it will tell you if a party is lacking in either of them.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I was just working over the adage of the best defense being a good offense and considering how does the math hold out on that in D&D?

Is it computable?

I mean one way of looking at it is the last attack against an enemy == a perfect parry for the attack they would have made. It it takes N attacks to take him down an extra attack is also moving one faster towards the end state and gets credit for the effect of a perfect defense. So perhaps an extra attack has its own value plus 1 perfect defense divided by N.

Context: Parry and Rally (ok needs a bit of scaling regardless) seem by consensus of the interwebs each considered much less potent than Riposte/Precision strike but they seem only a small amount behind by straight numbers. My gut says 1/3 stronger would be a better balance for them.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I have actually been arguing for more impairments on normal adversaries or enhancement on pcs with enemies are below half hit points ... encourage pcs spreading out the damage instead of so much focus fire.

I imagine if enemies focus fire on players that players will quickly find ways to spread them out (typically by using melee warriors as body blockers - OA's make a good threat). If they are doing this then they will typically spread their own damage out as well.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I was just working over the adage of the best defense being a good offense and considering how does the math hold out on that in D&D?

Is it computable?

I mean one way of looking at it is the last attack against an enemy == a perfect parry for the attack they would have made. It it takes N attacks to take him down an extra attack is also moving one faster towards the end state and gets credit for the effect of a perfect defense. So perhaps an extra attack has its own value plus 1 perfect defense divided by N.

Context: Parry and Rally (ok needs a bit of scaling regardless) seem by consensus of the interwebs each considered much less potent than Riposte/Precision strike but they seem only a small amount behind by straight numbers. My gut says 1/3 stronger would be a better balance for them.

Rally is really good. If you use all your superiority dice on it then you are able to generate 30 temp hp with it per short rest (at level 3 with 16 cha). The nice thing about these temp hp is that they can be distributed to just one character round after round if he's the one being targeted. It also has strong synergy with the inspiring leader feat.

Parry provides more damage mitigation because your more likely to max dex first and it doesnt cost your bonus action, but the cost of your reaction to use it potentially makes you much less sticky with OA's
 

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