D&D (2024) Fighting Styles Are Not Worth a Whole Feat

[Undrave]

To me this really improves the game. Being able to take Sentinel with a Wizard or Sharpshooter with a Rogue is awesome. I also love putting the fighting styles into a feat as well so other classes can even get those (albeit at a hefty price)

It's a presentation thing. If you can get class features with a feat, then it's kind of a light sprinkle of multi classing, which is fine. But when your class feature is 'you get a feat', even if from a limited list, then it's no longer your class feature, it's just a feat.

Magic Initiate isn't the Spellcasting class feature.

Is there any other class in the game where there is a feat letting your steal from a Subclass the same way you can pick up Battlemaster maneuvers? I can't think of one...

 

[Undrave]

Good point. One can also consider that a perceived weakness chosen for character concept reasons need not invalidate the overall mechanical effectiveness of a character. Especially in the context of the whole party.

I guess it all comes down to one's (or the table's) definition of "optimization". When that, IMO, lurches into the territory of a player telling another player that they shouldn't pick a particular option for their character because "it's a trap!" (which essentially boils down to: "no weaknesses allowed in the party"), well... some/many tables are going to find that just doesn't jive with their play goals. Every table may have a different take on this, of course, but I don't think this perspective is particularly novel.

IMO a trap option is something that lies about its value, or something that fails to do what its flavour pretend it does. Imagine if the Chef feat only gave you prof. in Cooking Ustensiles and like... the Survival skill to gather ingredients. It wouldn't be very good and wouldn't make you much of a chef.

Optimal options don't have to be flavourless or universally good, but they can't just be flavourful but while having no impact.

 

[ECMO3]

It's a presentation thing. If you can get class features with a feat, then it's kind of a light sprinkle of multi classing, which is fine. But when your class feature is 'you get a feat', even if from a limited list, then it's no longer your class feature, it's just a feat.

Magic Initiate isn't the Spellcasting class feature.

Is there any other class in the game where there is a feat letting your steal from a Subclass the same way you can pick up Battlemaster maneuvers? I can't think of one...

You can get the maenuvers with a fighting style too, so it is not just a battlemaster thing, but there plenty of examples from other classes.

Mobile feat steals from Swashbuckler subclass.

Poisioner steals from the Assassin subclass

Magic Initiate allows you to pick up spells and cantrips otherwise only available Wizards in the Dunamancy or Chronogy subclasesses.

Ritual Caster is a ripoff from pact of the Tome Warlocks

That is just subclasses, you also have the following class ripoffs:

Gift of Chromatic Dragon is close to being a ripoff of Elemental Affinity from the Draconic Sorcerer subclass.

The fighter unarmed fighting style, the fighting initiate feat that lets anyone get that, Tavern Brawler feat, Dragon Hide feat and several racial abilities all steal the unarmed strike ability from the Monk.

The skill expert, prodigy feat steal expertise from Bard and Rogue and in addition to those two, several backgrounds and the skilled feat let you take thieves tools from the Rogue.

I don't get your comment about Magic initiate, because it does allow any class to cast. Telepathic feat, Fey Touched Feat and Shadow Touched feat all do that as well, stealing from multiple casters.

The metamagic adept feat steals from sorcerer

The invocation feat (can't remember what it is called) and Warcaster both steal from Warlock

 

[Swarmkeeper]

IMO a trap option is something that lies about its value, or something that fails to do what its flavour pretend it does. Imagine if the Chef feat only gave you prof. in Cooking Ustensiles and like... the Survival skill to gather ingredients. It wouldn't be very good and wouldn't make you much of a chef.

Optimal options don't have to be flavourless or universally good, but they can't just be flavourful but while having no impact.

Honest (ahem) question: Do you think any of the proposed OneD&D feats, especially those 1st level feats, are lying about their value?

And, one thing I hope everyone here can agree on, a Chef feat had best be flavourful or that restaurant is not going to get much repeat business. Amirite?

 

[Undrave]

Mobile feat steals from Swashbuckler subclass.

Mobile came first, so it's not the same thing.

I don't get your comment about Magic initiate, because it does allow any class to cast.

What I mean is that Magic Iniate only gives you limited casting, it doesn't give you the 'Spellcasting' class feature with the full description of how many spells and how many slots and the progression. But I forgot Ritual Caster, you're right.

A lot of multi classing feat are watered down versions of what a class can do, they are there to give you a dash of that class, to dip your toes without a level dip, and they work great in general. But even if a feat allowed you to grab a Fighting Style, it was still a FIGHTER'S fighting style you were picking. It's not like if Magic Initiate allowed you to pick spells from ANY class and pick whatever casting ability you wanted: you still had to reference a class either way. Same with Ritual Caster, you didn't have free reign and had to reference a class.

Putting Fighting Styles in the feat section just detaches them from the Class. Imagine if Sneak Attack was a feat anybody could pick? Would it still feel like a Rogue's class feature?

 

[Undrave]

Honest (ahem) question: Do you think any of the proposed OneD&D feats, especially those 1st level feats, are lying about their value?

Eeeh... haven't dived deep enough into them, but I don't like the idea of level gated feat because of the imbalance it creates between feats. You might have a cool concept in mind that requires two level 1 feat and if you pick the other at level 4 you basically get punished for it. I don't think we get enough feats in the game for it to be so tightly level gated Maybe if there were two blocks: 1-10 and 11-20? Or if we got another feat between level 1 and level 4, but as it stands... not a fan.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Eeeh... haven't dived deep enough into them, but I don't like the idea of level gated feat because of the imbalance it creates between feats. You might have a cool concept in mind that requires two level 1 feat and if you pick the other at level 4 you basically get punished for it. I don't think we get enough feats in the game for it to be so tightly level gated Maybe if there were two blocks: 1-10 and 11-20? Or if we got another feat between level 1 and level 4, but as it stands... not a fan.

I can understand that - would something like this work for you?

If this level 1 feat is taken at level 4 or higher, add a +1 to Dex or Str

 

[Horwath]

I can understand that - would something like this work for you?

If this level 1 feat is taken at level 4 or higher, add a +1 to Dex or Str

yes.

all Level 1 feats should come with +1 ASI if taken at 4th level or later.

 

[leozg]

Fighting Style is not worth a whole feat, agreed, but it is also not a good 1st (or 2nd) level feature. Why not allowing 2 fighting styles for both Feat and Feature?

 

[Horwath]

Fighting Style is not worth a whole feat, agreed, but it is also not a good 1st (or 2nd) level feature. Why not allowing 2 fighting styles for both Feat and Feature?

outside archery? not it's not a good feature.

GWF is terrible, defense is meh, dueling and blindsight could be passable, the one with +1 dice and one known maneuver is only worth if you are battlemaster.