Fighting the gods - ideas, tweaks?

[Dark Dragon]

Having SR's above 30 is pretty much essential to the attack. Out of curiosity, how did they manage SR's above 30? Adult gold dragons don't have that level of protection. The gods themselves probably only have SR around 38.

Deity SRs depend on their divine rank, according to F&P, Fierna would be a lesser deity with 6 ranks would have SR 38 indeed, Mystra would have 50.

The SR increase of the PCs is part of their transcendence to higher dragon entities. On this process my epic campaign lays one of its two main foci, and each major test (being of the morale, intellect, or combat prowess type) gives them more powers. Most of these are more defensive, but some increase the offensive capabilities of the PCs. The increased SR is part of improved defensive.

Sure. But the spells were chosen as examples on the grounds that energy resistance itself provided insufficient protection. Ice storms do bludgeoning damage. The others do alignment damage. If you come in without complete immunity to spells, you die. If you come in without complete immunity to spells that can't be disjoined, you die a round later - assuming that a disjunction trap isn't the sort of thing that a god hasn't set up as a trap if his domain is entered against his will.

Still SR works just well against these spells. Disjunction is of course present in the weponry of the evil guys, both linked to traps and used as spells if needed.

I'm not sure you can have PCs that high, and fighting gods no less, without "tricky rules." That said, the existing mechanics for gods in 3.X are not that great, especially versus mortal opponents.

It's far better, in my opinion, if exceptionally high levels and divine ascension exist in a continuum, with the two bleeding over into each other (e.g. once you start gaining that much power, you essentially start becoming a god - and vice versa; when you become a god, that means you have a huge number of levels).

It's in that spirit that I recommend The Immortal's Handbook: Ascension, which puts divine ascension on a much wider scale for what's allowable (sub-demigods to beyond overgods) and keeps it PC-focused. There's also an Epic Bestiary as a companion product.

Finally, if you want an excellent book that discusses (with a modest focus on a universal mechanic) the nature of divinity in an RPG - and the inspiration for the Immortal's Handbook titles - consider checking out The Primal Order.

This seems to be just what I was looking for I got the impression that my approach (increase of class levels plus additional dragon powers) is a bit like a continuous process. Maybe I can flesh out the trancendence in a smoother way (better than the 3.5 rules). Have to get a close look at these books! Many thanks for the hint!

I feel "go to war" is a good analogy here. To defeat a god, you don't merely have to defeat it in battle, you have to shake the faith of it's believers, and you have to have your own faith tested. I'd require numerous quests, and some that could only be done by astrally projecting into a world dominated by these deities and manifesting there as a lowly commoner. Once there, you'd have to survive moral and ethical quandaries highlighting the dogma of these gods and what the PCs want to replace them with

Hmm, I'm not sure if that is so easy to realize...Do you mean by "commoner" that the PCs have all their memories, but otherwise none of their other powers and spells? So that they can only influence the evil guys by words, logic, and helpful deeds? This may work only against other low-level followers, but will not affect the higher levels in hierarchy.

As long as the god-fighters in question have the actual capability to kill these deities (your first consideration), I think its going to take trickery, threatening their major temples or other locations of earthly concern from these particular deities - you're going to make them want to get directly involved with your PCs, as in having no choice or lose something the deities hold dear.

Well that is definitively going to happen, because Fierna's cultists defiled every place the PCs had held dear: the monastery of PC cleric of Ilmater was turned into a house of pain and lust (and the monks were either turned or became undead), the academy of one of the PC arcanists is now a place for bloody sacrifices and a source of undead creatures, all relatives and loved ones of the ftr were massacred and the paladin friend of the ftr was risen by the cult as a disguised undead and sent out to murder more paladins. The leaders of Fierna's cult look like and have the habits of their PC counterparts and did all that evil in the name of the PCs, to ruin the PCs' reputation forever. The story is more complex, but this was one goal that Fierna wanted to achieve. Simply killing the PCs would have been to easy.

Fierna is not used to politics and duties of a lesser goddess (and so she is not aware of all the intrigues, networks, and alliances of other much older powers), but she is overconfident in her abilities, assuming that her status simply allows her to do as she pleases and problems simply go away if she wills it so.

Her only ally, Mephistopheles, uses her more as puppet and useful pawn. He is much more intriguing and smarter in politics, and makes up a good part of Fierna's lacking sense for the behaviour of the other gods and lords of the Nine Hells. Yet he can't always get Fierna to do what he sees as most useful, and fears that Fierna may ruin everything that he has planned before. So he keeps a low profile, and tries to learn what other powers plan against Fierna.
Belial has underestimated his daughter and now tries to save as much as he can from his shattered plans and network. As long as Fierna accepts him as one of the Lords of the Nine Hells, he does as she asks. But in secret he tries to develop a plan B, to come into effect as soon as Fierna is tired of him. Maybe an alliance with Asmodeus would help?

Of course, Asmodeus and the Hag Countess oppose Fierna because she disturbed the old balance of power within the Nine Hells. So especially Asmodeus is keen to see Fierna removed from power, and have Belial punished for not keeping the girl under close supervision. From the good deities, Ilmater is a foe of Fierna, and he is supported by Torm, because Fierna's cultists were responsible for the death of most of Torm's clergy in Tantras. From the evil deities, Loviatar dislikes Fierna because their portfolios have some overlap.

Perhaps 'capture', 'threaten', or 'kill' a lesser deity that has a close relationship to these deities. A direct challenge by the PCs will probably not coax the gods to want to fight, but, as stated, giving them a very strong reason forcing their hand is the way to do it. Though, since I don't your deities being used and how much power their do or do not have, I can't give you an exact method of attracting their full attention.

Fierna has a divine rank of 6. She still has a very close relationship with Belial (who is still Lord of the Fourth), a fact that is well known to Mephistopheles (who has plans to use Belial as a hostage, if Fierna's behaviour would get out of control). She would not admit it, but she knows that she needs counsel from Mephistopheles from time to time, and therefore would come to his aid if needed.

 

[Alzrius]

This seems to be just what I was looking for I got the impression that my approach (increase of class levels plus additional dragon powers) is a bit like a continuous process. Maybe I can flesh out the trancendence in a smoother way (better than the 3.5 rules). Have to get a close look at these books! Many thanks for the hint!

I hope those are helpful for you!

I also forgot to mention before, but there's a truly excellent fan resource that you should consider looking at also, since your bad guys are Arch-Devils: The Gates of Hell, by Dicefreaks.

This is a fan-made work that's based on the 3.X epic-level and deity rules, but it's far and away one of the single best resources for Hell and D&D. I highly recommend checking it out.

 

[NuSair]

I disagree on the Gods being able to avoid a fight forever. When I deal with 'future' things in my games, it takes one of two forms. The first are flexible things...things that can change. Then there are fixed things. Those are things that will happen regardless of what you do.

A lot of it comes down also to how you have your Gods/Pantheons set up.

Also, there is a book called Elder Evils, that is pretty good and offers some insight into how you might could affect a God. Like being immune to all divine divination spells and effects, which would prevent a God from 'seeing it coming'.