Finally got 4e: initial impressions

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Well, I used the prize I won in Jorgen's mythological creature wiki contest to buy a PDF copy of the 4th edition PHB today. I've only had a couple of hours to 'thumb through' it, and I still have a difficult time reading PDFs as compared to books, but I do have a couple of observations from my first cursory read-through ....

The art is excellent, much better than all but a few 3x books, IMO. They finally are using clear, living colors again instead of that muddy, yellow-brown and mauve palette they loved with 3rd edition, when WotC's art director was evidently Mr. P. Dovetonsils. And the equipment looks like equipment again, rather than bondage gear.

It's good to see that fighters have something to do other than be overshadowed by everyone else as they advance in level.

I'm a bit appalled by the changes to magic items (although basic 3e had the same effect on me). I still remember the sense of wonder that the bizarre 1st edition magic items gave me -- Chimes of Hunger, Horns of Blasting, cursed items, etc, etc. Now the items have been reduced to a series of passive bonuses for the most part -- weird and wonderful stuff is mostly gone.

Combat, combat everywhere. Yes, I know combat has always been a BIG part of D&D, and 1st edition AD&D didn't even have a nodding acquaintance with a skill system. But it seems like everything is part of a highly polished combat system. Every spell is designed for combat. Even most of the "utility" powers are just combat powers that don't DIRECTLY kill something.

The jury's still out on this one -- at the moment I'm caught between enthusiasm for changes that improved huge warts of D&D, and a feeling of what I can best describe as "tofu meh."

 

[MerricB]

I'm a bit appalled by the changes to magic items (although basic 3e had the same effect on me). I still remember the sense of wonder that the bizarre 1st edition magic items gave me -- Chimes of Hunger, Horns of Blasting, cursed items, etc, etc. Now the items have been reduced to a series of passive bonuses for the most part -- weird and wonderful stuff is mostly gone.

I'm really hoping that stuff gets into the upcoming "Adventurer's Vault" product. Still, most of the items do have additional powers that are activated and aren't just passive.

Combat, combat everywhere. Yes, I know combat has always been a BIG part of D&D, and 1st edition AD&D didn't even have a nodding acquaintance with a skill system. But it seems like everything is part of a highly polished combat system. Every spell is designed for combat. Even most of the "utility" powers are just combat powers that don't DIRECTLY kill something.

Indeed. Powers are combat (encounter) orientated for the most part. There's a few exceptions. When you get to non-combat, go to Skills and Rituals.

If something could be done non-magically, the Skill system handles it. A lot of this is in the DM's hands and isn't specifically referred to in the PHB. (To be truthful, there are some things that should be in the DMG that aren't, such as how to handle tracking. You pose it as a Skill Challenge, which can use Nature and Perception for the most part).

If something needs to be done magically, there should be a ritual that handles it. There probably isn't at this point, which is a weakness of the initial release. I'm really hoping we'll see more in the near future.

For powers that aren't directly combat related (but are usable within the framework of an encounter), here's a few examples:

Cleric - Holy Lantern (pg 66)
Paladin - Astral Speech (pg 93), One Heart, One Mind (pg 94)
Ranger - Crucial Advice, Skilled Companion (pg 106)
Rogue - Fleeting Ghost, Great Leap, Master of Deceit (pg 119)
Wizard - Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Jump (pp 159-160), Mordenkainen's Mansion (pg 167).

Most powers are combat related, though.

Cheers!

 

[Goobermunch]

I'm really hoping that stuff gets into the upcoming "Adventurer's Vault" product. Still, most of the items do have additional powers that are activated and aren't just passive.



Indeed. Powers are combat (encounter) orientated for the most part. There's a few exceptions. When you get to non-combat, go to Skills and Rituals.

If something could be done non-magically, the Skill system handles it. A lot of this is in the DM's hands and isn't specifically referred to in the PHB. (To be truthful, there are some things that should be in the DMG that aren't, such as how to handle tracking. You pose it as a Skill Challenge, which can use Nature and Perception for the most part).

If something needs to be done magically, there should be a ritual that handles it. There probably isn't at this point, which is a weakness of the initial release. I'm really hoping we'll see more in the near future.

For powers that aren't directly combat related (but are usable within the framework of an encounter), here's a few examples:

Cleric - Holy Lantern (pg 66)
Paladin - Astral Speech (pg 93), One Heart, One Mind (pg 94)
Ranger - Crucial Advice, Skilled Companion (pg 106)
Rogue - Fleeting Ghost, Great Leap, Master of Deceit (pg 119)
Wizard - Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Jump (pp 159-160), Mordenkainen's Mansion (pg 167).

Most powers are combat related, though.

Cheers!

And beguiling tongue. Don't forget beguiling tongue. If you do, the terrorists win.

Okay, maybe not. But it is disturbing that the "evil" class can get diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate scores in the low 30s by second level.

<i>Join me, Luke. Together, we can rule the dungeon!</i>

--G

Wow. It's late.

 

[Mark]

Mr. P. Dovetonsils.

Well, that's going back a few editions, so to speak.

 

[Mercule]

I'm really hoping that stuff gets into the upcoming "Adventurer's Vault" product. Still, most of the items do have additional powers that are activated and aren't just passive.

Agreed. The "bag of tricks" preview gives me hope, too. My guess is that the PHB really just contains the standardized magic that is going to see use in pretty much every game.

 

[Scribble]

I really really really hope adventurer's vault holds the everlasting peanut.

 

[Vorput]

The 4e books are available in .pdf?

Where?

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Well, that's going back a few editions, so to speak.

Yes, it is. But it seemed like a humorous way to sum up what I was talking about with the art.

Oddly enough, one thing that hasn't bothered me yet, but which seems to bother other people, was the at-will, encounter, daily thing. I sort of tend to think that these are powers that it takes some effort to "set up" -- getting the opponent in just the right spot or whatever.

I'm still not quite sure what to make of the game as a whole, though. =)

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

The 4e books are available in .pdf?

Where?

Ha! A question I can actually answer!

The Enworld download store -- there's a link in the upper righthand corner of this page, if your current page looks the same as mine.

(Mind you, the books cost as much as the paper version -- I just got the PDF because that's the only thing my gift certificate was good for.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I really really really hope adventurer's vault holds the everlasting peanut.

As a magical item or as a side dish?

Oddly enough, one thing that hasn't bothered me yet, but which seems to bother other people, was the at-will, encounter, daily thing. I sort of tend to think that these are powers that it takes some effort to "set up" -- getting the opponent in just the right spot or whatever.

It is indeed one of the biggest problem for anyone switching (or considering to switch) editions. If you manage to accept it, don't worry - just play the game.

I'm still not quite sure what to make of the game as a whole, though. =)

I said it: Play the game. You will get a better feeling for it, and can decide whether it works for you or not. There seems to be a dearth of 1st level adventures*, but I think Raiders of Oakhurst should still be around, and one of the Dungeons contains the start of the new Adventure Path. There might also still some of the Delve scenarios available.