Shadowdark Finally Played Shadowdark

[TwoSix]

The principles of the OSR as written by Ben Milton, et al are new, sure. The mechanics that lead to those principles are not. All the mechanical hallmarks of OSR-style play exist in the early editions of D&D. You don't need a blog that says "Combat is a fail state" to recognize that PCs are fragile and monsters can easily kill you, so you should generally avoid combat and think of clever ways to win. Likewise with a bit of signposting traps and instant death. Likewise with skilled play and planning vs blindly charging into combat. Likewise monsters as puzzles given how many monsters had bizarre weaknesses combined with resistance or immunity.

Sure, I agree with all that. It's fairly obvious that the OSR principles written up in the '00s and '10s were codifying a prevalent strain of play that existed during the '70s-'80s.

The only time it causes confusion is when people say things like "But we didn't play that way back then at all!" Which I'm sure is true, but also doesn't really mean anything. People were playing in a whole lot of different ways.

 

[Fenris-77]

I am not sure how that even works, aren’t the players deciding what room they go in next?


the ‘characters are inept and should have a 50% chance to be killed by one hit from a goblin’ sounds like the system to me, not just a bad DM

Going to zero HP doesn't kill you, so the math there is way off. First the goblin has to roll to hit, then roll to damage, and then there's all kinds of other stuff that has to happen before your character actualy dies. Never mind that in most games you'll only be first level fora session or two. Does a goblin have a 50-50 chance of reducing a 1st level wizard to 0 HP if it hits in combat? Hmm, maybe? Perhaps? Anyway, that it's not a 50-50 kill is the point.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

All the mechanical hallmarks of OSR-style play exist in the early editions of D&D. You don't need a blog that says "Combat is a fail state" to recognize that PCs are fragile and monsters can easily kill you, so you should generally avoid combat and think of clever ways to win.

Let me tell you about the time we stumbled into the main hall in the Steading of the Hill Giant chief unprepared ...

 

[Mannahnin]

The principles of the OSR as written by Ben Milton, et al are new, sure. The mechanics that lead to those principles are not. All the mechanical hallmarks of OSR-style play exist in the early editions of D&D. You don't need a blog that says "Combat is a fail state" to recognize that PCs are fragile and monsters can easily kill you, so you should generally avoid combat and think of clever ways to win. Likewise with a bit of signposting traps and instant death. Likewise with skilled play and planning vs blindly charging into combat. Likewise monsters as puzzles given how many monsters had bizarre weaknesses combined with resistance or immunity.

Yup.

Back in the day the lethal consequences of the mechanics were that you had to do SOMETHING if you didn't want to die all the time.

Either you came up with alternative tactics to hack & slash (scout, talk, bribe, use hireling meatshields, etc.), or you changed the mechanics to make the PCs more durable (or "unofficially" did the latter by the DM fudging rolls like crazy).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I am not sure how that even works, aren’t the players deciding what room they go in next?

It is a baffler, to be sure.

the ‘characters are inept and should have a 50% chance to be killed by one hit from a goblin’ sounds like the system to me, not just a bad DM

Well, the characters shouldn't be rolling most of the time. I just ran a game last Sunday and when the ranger wanted to climb the vines on the outside of a wall to get into a wizard's garden, I just said "sure."

If he was doing it under fire from the wizard's henchfolk or it was the wizard and not the ranger doing it, I'd have someone roll.

When someone knows how to do something and there's no reason it would be especially difficult, there's no roll required. If it's difficult but it's something they should know how to do (because of their background, class, ancestry or other), they roll with advantage.

If they don't know how to do something and they're under pressure, then they have that high chance of failure. Which, yeah, they should.

But short of playing with Retreater's Rogues Gallery of Bad DMs, this isn't going to happen.

And while I agree it could happen, I've been running Shadowdark for two years now and never seen anyone die from one hit from a goblin. My players aren't necessarily Seal Team 6, but they also don't normally get into situations where they stand up face to face with monsters and take turns whacking each other with their weapons. They fire from a distance from behind cover and find ways to turn the combat site to their advantage.

Very early on, I did have a pit fighter who let his torch go out in an experimental solo run through Firetop Mountain (probably a few more tweaks needed to make it work, but I think it's probably doable to adapt Fighting Fantasy to Shadowdark) and die to goblins. But there was more than one of them, he had provoked them into a fight, and they were attacking with advantage since he couldn't see them. Which again, yeah, that's how it probably should go.

 

[TiQuinn]

The fact that a game is designed with a particular playstyle in mind is unconnected with whether or not "most players" actually want that out of that game.

I would say that’s the definition of a niche, and i find people don’t like being called part of a niche group (unless it’s Brindlewood Bay players and they definitely know they’re niche lol).

 

[TiQuinn]

But without a fighter, what do you do when you inevitably fail to avoid combat?

Apparently, you die. Because you failed.

 

[mamba]

If they don't know how to do something and they're under pressure, then they have that high chance of failure. Which, yeah, they should.

But short of playing with Retreater's Rogues Gallery of Bad DMs, this isn't going to happen.

I agree with most of what you wrote here, apart from maybe what exactly the chance of failure should be.

Many of the replies to the OP sounded like it is their own damn fault for even getting into combat however, that they should have known better than to do that and that failure at a check is basically the default, so they should find foolproof ways around things rather than relying on rolls they are likely to fail anyway. If those replies accurately represent SD play, then I won't have much interest in that

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would say that’s the definition of a niche, and i find people don’t like being called part of a niche group (unless it’s Brindlewood Bay players and they definitely know they’re niche lol).

Well, we all can only speak for ourselves (despite me seeing folks try to strengthen their arguments by claiming a bunch of people agree with them), but personally I expect I'm in a niche group.

Guess how much that affects my opinions?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Apparently, you die. Because you failed.

Sounds like fighters are pretty important then. Good thing SD made one.