find a balance between rules and role playing

[Elf Witch]

OK, I'm confused. Did you just toss in a fireball without looking or did your DM give you any kind of description of the room? Did he describe it as "a very small room" or "you see a wall a short distance from the door"? Map or no map, you should be able to have to room described to some degree unless you aren't looking in first like if you operate like some kind of strike team who just opens doors and tosses spells in.

Now, you say you told your party to move away from the door, you had an idea. Did the DM assume they were close because you didn't tell the others what your idea was? Why didn;t you? Would it be using game terms to say: "move away from the door, I'm going to cast Fireball," because Fireball is a game term? Do spells in your campaign not have any kind of name, then? Would it have been ok to say "move away from the door, I'm going to release a ball of flame into the room," which would allow the players to state that they were standing back away from the door?

If I were DMing this situation (but I wouldn't be since I use a mat), I would have asked if the others were standing closer to the door than the mage or further back from the door. I also would have described the room to give a rough estimate about its size (I can tell the difference between a room that is about 10 X 10 versus one that is 20 X 20, I assume seasoned adventurers could do the same) before you cast your spell.

Okay we are in the abyss in a the underground of a prison it is pitchblack if you cast any light you get attacked by shadow creatures. We all have darkvision spells going.

The room was described a room full of chains hanging from the ceiling and we heard rustling in there. We are all hurt and out of healing and most magic and being chased by a psychotic drow with an evil wizard. We need a place to rest.

I knew I would get caught in the spell I was prepared to take the damage for the good of the party. The others said they moved away now we have a wizard in the party as well as my sorcerer he knows the range of the spells he said I move away.

The room was huge but I was told that I could not see the whole room so the spell would detonate ten feet into the room.

Without a mat to see where everyone was standing I assumed that saying we are moving back should be enough for the DM.

What annoys the most at times is that role playing can be bogged down so much by the rules. You have to think in metagame terms. I just think there are times when you can be a little looser with the rules and I think this was one of them. Here I was willing to take major damage for the party to help redeem my character some and instead it was for nothing and just resulted in the party being angry at getting caught in a fireball.

When I first started being able to cast fireballs I was rather free and lose with them I was role playing a sorcerer getting this new power not a wizard who studies and knows all the aspects of the spell so the first time I cast it I got the edge of the party. Which was a poor role playing choice on my part because it made the players mad so know I play any new spell I get as the sorcerer automatically knows everything there is to know about the spell.

 

[kamosa]

During our last session I was very close to strangling our DM. He kept saying don't use game terms stay in character. So we came to a room I told the rest of the party to move away from the door that I had an idea. They did and I took some cover from the frame and cast a fireball into the room. I did this all in character. We did not have a battlemat drawn out. The fireball comes billowing out of the room and he ruled that everyone was in range and had to make saves.

This is something that I often find very frustrating with the game. It is hard to stay in character when you have to stop and say okay everyone move sixty feet down the hall count it out on the grid.

I think the battlemat is fine for combat so you can see where you are in realtion to everyone else. But is it really necessary to be that rules accurate every second in the game? Would it break the game balence to just say we move away and asume that they have seen enough fireballs from this character to know to get out of range?

I can understand if the fireball is coming from an enemy mage then it is important to know where everyone is.

So how to other DMs handle things like this?

I've seen this before. Like your character wouldn't know what 60ft was. In real life I have trouble moving exactly 60ft, but I rarely screw it up on the side of only moving 5ft instead.

Just a guess, but I bet the NPC and enemies never suffer from this sort of movement punishment. They always move just out of range of such problems or are able to communicate tactics seemingly telepathically.

If I had been on the jury I wouldn't have convicted you for that strangling.

 

[The_lurkeR]

If I had been on the jury I wouldn't have convicted you for that strangling.

Seconded... but wait does that disqualify us if he does do it now?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Having said that, I love the map, both as a DM and as a player, because I like the tactical aspect of play. It helps make the situation more concrete for me, and helps keep combat from turning into "I roll, I hit, I do X damage, I roll, I hit, I do X damage." The more detailed the layout, and the more "stuff" there is (from trees to treasure chests to dead bugbears), the more neat stunts I can come up with. (Think Jackie Chan using saplings to beat up braves in Shanghai Noon.)

Hmm. I've found the exact opposite, IME. Use of the map causes people to stop thinking as characters and start thinking as game pieces. I hate square counting.

However, that's not the topic at hand.

In regards to the topic at hand, your DM was being a *BLEEP*. At the very least, he should have pointed out that there wasn't enough room to avoid the blast (if that were even the case). Otherwise, assuming stupidity on the part of the characters is, as others have pointed out, uncool.

I try to avoid arguing in the midst of the game, but honestly, I'd have been hard-pressed not to go off on this one until I was blue in the face, had I been in your shoes. :\

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Hmm. I've found the exact opposite, IME. Use of the map causes people to stop thinking as characters and start thinking as game pieces. I hate square counting.

That's why I use battle-maps without lines and a tape measure with paper cut-outs to represent spell effect areas.

 

[Elf Witch]

Hmm. I've found the exact opposite, IME. Use of the map causes people to stop thinking as characters and start thinking as game pieces. I hate square counting.

However, that's not the topic at hand.

In regards to the topic at hand, your DM was being a *BLEEP*. At the very least, he should have pointed out that there wasn't enough room to avoid the blast (if that were even the case). Otherwise, assuming stupidity on the part of the characters is, as others have pointed out, uncool.

I try to avoid arguing in the midst of the game, but honestly, I'd have been hard-pressed not to go off on this one until I was blue in the face, had I been in your shoes. :\

Actually it is part of the topic trying to stay in character and avoid metagaming while keeping the rules clear in your head.

The DM did tell me that it would only go in ten feet so I knew it would come billowing out towards me. I was just a little upset that it hit the rest of the party especially when just a few minutes earlier he had been chastising me for using game speak.

We did argue some and he gave us cover and so that lowered the save we needed which helpedbecause my character has high DC on her saves.

My DM is usually a very good DM he does not usually try and screw the players. And I don't think he was trying to screw us in this case. Though I think that he could have been more flexible in how he viewed this.

I think to really enjoy the role playing aspect you need not be a slave to the rules at all times.

 

[Firzair]

Hi everybody,
there's something I don't understand here:
Fireball is a 20-feet-radius spread, i.e. if you cast it 10 feet into the room you just have to be 15 more feet away from the door to not get caught in the blast. What's all that talk about 60 feet? I'd like to know where you get that number from.
From the SRD on spell areas:

Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

*highlighted by me

So the maximum distance from the point of origin of the fireball a creature takes damage is 20 feet, no more, no less. Any sane spell caster that has already cast the spell at least once should know how far this distance is and even if he has to be nearer for targetting he should be able to send his friends far enough away.

Your DM sometimes should bring a little common sense with him to the gaming table, helps a lot

Greetings
Firzair

 

[Zappo]

Okay we are in the abyss in a the underground of a prison it is pitchblack if you cast any light you get attacked by shadow creatures. We all have darkvision spells going.

The room was described a room full of chains hanging from the ceiling and we heard rustling in there. We are all hurt and out of healing and most magic and being chased by a psychotic drow with an evil wizard. We need a place to rest.

Wheeee! You're playing my adventure!

As a general rule, I agree with swrushing. I keep in mind that the actual characters have a much better view of the situation than what the DM can describe to the players in a reasonable amount of time. Sometimes the players lack information and make assumptions, and sometimes there are plain misunderstandings. Since the characters aren't suicidally idiot, if a player declares what I think is an obviously stupid action such as casting a fireball while within blast range, I will make sure to clarify all circumstances before proceeding. Heck, I am even willing to replay or retcon actions that were based on a misunderstanding, even if they weren't obviously wrong, as long as I don't have to replay half a combat. The DM has a different perspective, he may consider things obvious that in fact aren't obvious at all.

It could be that the fiery projectile which a fireball spell creates has hit something which caused it to explode prematurely. The room is full of hanging chains, plenty of obstacles there. With darkvision though, you would have seen any obstruction and the same rule as above applies (sane wizard wouldn't throw a fireball at an obstacle).

The 60 feet might refer to the range of darkvision. BTW, there is plenty of space to move outside the room, so that's not an issue.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I'm a pushover DM. If you are a Wizard or Sorcerer and have used the Fireball spell many times in the past I'd automatically assume that you would know what to expect with the spell and would have moved everyone to a safe distance provided that it was a non-combat/non-stressful situation. If it was the first time you tried the new spell I'd probably require a Spellcraft roll since you are unfamiliar with it.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I've seen this before. Like your character wouldn't know what 60ft was. In real life I have trouble moving exactly 60ft, but I rarely screw it up on the side of only moving 5ft instead.

Isn't the range of Darkvision 60'? There is your measurement, you move back until you can't make out your target anymore and cast it to the extent of your vision.

Hmm. I've found the exact opposite, IME. Use of the map causes people to stop thinking as characters and start thinking as game pieces. I hate square counting.

Totally agree. I use a dry erase board for any sketches I need to make and only break out the Battlemat when ABSOLUTELY necessary.