Find the Anime Challenge

[gizmo33]

While I disagree with your position and broader point, I am totally digging the white paper. Thanks for pointing out its existence!

Cool How can you disagree though? At least in terms of videogames the paper paints a pretty clear picture of something I would have thought all MMORPG players would know anyway, which is the technology and it's limitations creates a certain kind of playstyle and feel to a game. Whether or not such a thing can apply to a given RPG is debateable, but something being debateable, or even erroneous, is not the same thing as "meaningless".

 

[Jedi_Solo]

it seems to make no sense to me logically for one to complain, on one hand, that such-and-such a term is overused and on the other hand that it's meaningless. Clearly if it's being overused (however improperly) there is some concept at the root of the word that has meaning. (I'm not saying that I always understand those meanings though.)

Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong... but what I think is meant that if 100 people use a term and there seem to be 100 different meanings behind the term whith no apparent common ground, that the term itself is not useful in the discussion.

(I say "apparent" common ground in the way people 1 through 5 use the term might have similar meanings (though not exactly the same) and people 95 through 100 have similar meanings but the usage of those two groups as a whole has no apparent commonality.)

I agree that the word 'meaningless' is likely a bad choice. It obviously means something to the person who used it (even if it just means 'a hot button word that will enflame other posters'). What about the term 'useless'? If 100 people people use a term and the meanings seem to be all over the place, when person 101 uses ithe term it can't really help in the discussion. I would bet that the useage from person 101 would be lost in the noise and ignored - or worse (and more likely) that everyone will see it and assume they are taking the stance that it diametrically opposed to their own position.

I will state that (for the most part) I feel the terms "anime" and "videogamey" (as far as D&D is concerned) are now 'useless'... except to start flame wars - they are very useful for that. They have been used to describe so many different things that no one knows exactly what anyone is talking about anymore. Any constructive usage of the words are gone.

 

[gizmo33]

I'm not sure I quite follow what you're saying, here. Are you talking from a technical standpoint or from a games-theory standpoint or something else?

The "game play" and "feel of a game". The technology limits what you can do within a game. There are also limitations (and often a broader categories of "things that are a pain to do") in any system, computer or dice-driven. What I'm saying is that the existence of a general set of conditions for MMORPGs and the way they play was recognized implicitly in the paper. The issue of whether or not Darkstar was finished isn't relevant, the analysis contained a recognition of the issue that was being called "meaningless". IMO the word "meaningless" is being overused on this board for things that it doesn't apply to.

Like 'anime' in this context 'videogamey' is another nebulous concept that generally never gets backed up with specific details. Trying to say that Halo 1 somehow influenced D&D seems disingenuous...

Well, for one thing, specific instances of people using the word "cold" in some sort of insane rant is neither here nor there. Perhaps it's relevant for those of you that are reacting to specific, but unstated experiences but for a casual reader like me reading over these posts, there's nothing in terms of universal logic that suggests that all uses of the word 'anime' in the context of DnD art are meaningless. And again, "nebulous" might be more of a indication of a lack of understanding and/or poor communication rather than something that's logically unsound about the persons thought process.

On the topic of weather or not Halo 1 influenced 3E DnD, I would think that would be more complicated by the fact that two things can share characteristics because they're design goals, values, technology, or whatever were shared by both. I don't think it's completely unreasonable that the Bioware people, for example, came back to the RPG designers and said "hey, this would be a lot easier to program if you got rid of some of these idiosyncracies".

Yes, terms like 'hot' and 'cold' are, to some degree (HA!) relative...but only in fine-tunings and personal acclimation.

Yea, and we're essentially talking about something very simple in a situation were we all share basically the same biology. But the problem with terminology for art is that it's highly subjective, and especially when you have non-technical people, or those that know nothing about anime (like me) using words that the "true believers" use much more precisely. Probably all words have some very specific technical meaning in some field, but, as I've said, saying someone's statement is "meaningless" simply because their words/definitions don't jibe with their own IMO is not constructive.

I agree that if twenty people all identify something as 'anime' that even if correct, it's possible they've analyzed some sort of identifiable trend. But that's not what's happened here.

Yea, but what has appeared to have happened at this time (this a big thread) is "that's meaningless, next!"

A large part of the changes that D&D has experienced in the last three decades has come from player feedback and the changing tastes of gamers.

Are sure? Take Spell Spheres for clerics for example (in 2E). To me, that was an idea with some potential but poor implementation and design. Had anyone anyone actually playtested it and given feedback on it, I would not have expected it to take the final form that it did.

The problem is that IME design by consensus is very difficult, and "design by player feedback" is orders of magnitude more difficult than that. People know what they like but they often IME just grasp for straws when it's time to present a solution. I would think designers use feedback to look for general areas that need their attention, but that the specific solutions the present are more a combination of a shot in the dark with their own experiences.

What I enjoyed or considered acceptable in 1982 doesn't cut it, now. Hell, what I considered acceptable in 1997 doesn't cut it now. Game design has moved on. Popular art has moved on.

Well, it's different. "Moved on" I think has connotations that are overly presumptuous IMO. Especially in terms of art. I find much of the later stuff in 3E to be "childish" IMO, overly reliant on cheap computer effects and cartoonish muscles and not as interesting as alot of the landscape-oriented stuff. Is that an over-generalization based on my overly limited experience with what I've seen? Perhaps, but it's not "meaningless" just because I can't find the right words to describe abstract concepts.

 

[Nifft]

I agree that the word 'meaningless' is likely a bad choice. It obviously means something to the person who used it (even if it just means 'a hot button word that will enflame other posters'). What about the term 'useless'?

Any reason we're ignoring the obvious choice ("ambiguous", more specifically "too ambiguous")?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Any reason we're ignoring the obvious choice ("ambiguous", more specifically "too ambiguous")?

Yes, there is a specific reason. If my last post wasn't proof enough - Eye kan't spel wel.

Ambiguous would require me to look up the spelling or at least require a spellchecker. I'm lazy so I went with the word that I could look at and say - Yup, that looks right.

Seriously - I thought of "ambiguous" and decided against it for spelling reasons.

 

[gizmo33]

Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong... but what I think is meant that if 100 people use a term and there seem to be 100 different meanings behind the term whith no apparent common ground, that the term itself is not useful in the discussion.

(Hmmm. The logic is strong in this one...) Seriously though, thanks, I think your addressing the issue I have with this. I would like to find a way to talk about DnD art on some sort of common ground that does not quickly devolve into arguments over terminology. I'm not sure that everyone that has some measure of dislike for 3E art in general would all agree on the reasons anyway. I often find myself recognizing the spirit of what's written though, even if I don't recognize the particular terminology that they're using, so the word "meaningless", which was one of my main points, IMO went too far, which is something I think we both agree on.

 

[Cadfan]

Any reason we're ignoring the obvious choice ("ambiguous", more specifically "too ambiguous")?

Cheers, -- N

Yes. The goal here is to whitewash the use of the phrase, "D&D is too anime!!!" The problem here is that D&D isn't noticeably anime, making that sentence false. So its being cunningly suggested that the popular use of the phrase "D&D is too anime!!!" means that the word "anime" must have some meaning for which that sentence is true.

 

[gizmo33]

So its being cunningly suggested that the popular use of the phrase "D&D is too anime!!!" means that the word "anime" must have some meaning for which that sentence is true.

I don't find it all that cunning, but thanks The suggestion is simply based on the fact that many folks appear to be paradoxically dismissing a term as being overused but then simultaneously suggesting that there's no meaning at the root of it's use. That's it's uniformly used, but somehow used incorrectly/with no meaning. To me it seems somewhat logical, and not all that cunning that the person making the statement is either insane (which is highly improbable), dishonest (a strange conclusion and no discernable motivation) or just not using the word the way other people use it (IMO the most likely possibility).

I'm happy with the "ambiguous" idea put forth, but then it begs the question IMO as to what all of these people using the term were trying to describe.

 

[Nifft]

Seriously - I thought of "ambiguous" and decided against it for spelling reasons.

FireFox, amigo! It's got a built-in spellchecker -- for example, it's right now warning me that "spellchecker" isn't a word.

Luckily, I've got the balls to ignore it upon occasion.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hussar]

I don't find it all that cunning, but thanks The suggestion is simply based on the fact that many folks appear to be paradoxically dismissing a term as being overused but then simultaneously suggesting that there's no meaning at the root of it's use. That's it's uniformly used, but somehow used incorrectly/with no meaning. To me it seems somewhat logical, and not all that cunning that the person making the statement is either insane (which is highly improbable), dishonest (a strange conclusion and no discernable motivation) or just not using the word the way other people use it (IMO the most likely possibility).

I'm happy with the "ambiguous" idea put forth, but then it begs the question IMO as to what all of these people using the term were trying to describe.

The problem with ambiguous is that, as Cadfan points out, it means that the term being used does have some applicable meaning, just that the meaning is unclear.

But, as we've shown, anime in this context has almost nothing to do with the art being discussed. It just doesn't apply. I could start saying that D&D art is Pointillist, but, I'd be wrong. ((I think, since I don't actually know what pointillist art is, I'm just making a point here. )) Saying that D&D art is anime is wrong. It's not. Except for a very, very small set of examples, D&D art has almost nothing in common with anime. Or, at least nothing more in common with anime than any other pop art form.

So, yes, I do believe that using anime as a descriptor is meaningless. Or useless. Whichever makes you happier. It's not ambiguous, because, I pretty much know what the poster means. "This art is crap. Anime is crap. Thus this art is anime" seems to be the common refrain. The problem is, the art isn't really related to anime in more than an oblique fashion.

In the Hot/Cold example, you changed the original point. Your point was that hot and cold, because they can have multiple meanings, are similar to anime. Hot on Pluto is different than hot on Earth. The problem is, in context, the meaning is pretty clear. However, no definition of the styles of anime actually look like the art in the WOTC galleries. Yes, anime has lots of different meanings, but, none of them apply here.

So, if you use a term that actually doesn't apply, should we change the meaning of the word to suit you or ask that you use a different term?