Find the path -- destination definable by effect?

[Cheiromancer]

I was taking "an earthquake that happened yesterday" as a designator, not a descriptor. Like maybe you received an urgent sending from the provincial capital of Lamorra, that an earthquake has devastated the city. You teleport to the city, and try to locate where the earthquake's origin is (you suspect a magical cause for the earthquake). Then you mean THIS particular earthquake, the one that happened yesterday.

As opposed to idly wondering if maybe there was a major earthquake somewhere in the world the previous day, and deciding to try to find your way to the nearest. (Or biggest, or one that caused the greatest loss of intelligent life, or whatever)

That's my take on the PHB description- you can't use it to find "a forest where a green dragon lives" but you can use it to find the exit to a labyrinth. Presumably one that you are in, and which you can designate rather than merely describe.

 

[cheshire_grin]

I was taking "an earthquake that happened yesterday" as a designator, not a descriptor. Like maybe you received an urgent sending from the provincial capital of Lamorra, that an earthquake has devastated the city. You teleport to the city, and try to locate where the earthquake's origin is (you suspect a magical cause for the earthquake). Then you mean THIS particular earthquake, the one that happened yesterday.

And I would still suggest that this is not the purpose of the find the path spell, nor should it be -- this sort of open-ended search is best served by other divinations, I would think.

Find the path is literally "I am at point A, and I want to know how to get to point B, how do I do so, safely bypassing traps and secret doors?". Figuring out what point B is isn't really within the spell's ability as described--the way it reads (to me), you have to know what point B is (in terms of locale, not description).

Admittedly, it's fuzzy enough that I could see ruling either way as a DM; this is just my own personal interpretation.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Find the path is literally "I am at point A, and I want to know how to get to point B, how do I do so, safely bypassing traps and secret doors?". Figuring out what point B is isn't really within the spell's ability as described--the way it reads (to me), you have to know what point B is (in terms of locale, not description).

So if you enter a labyrinth it can bring you back to the entrance, since it is familiar to you, but not the exit, since you've never seen it?

But if you *can* find an unknown exit, why not an unknown center? And if the center of a labyrinth, why not the center of a storm which you have just entered? Or the center of the devastation caused by an earthquake?

 

[Jack Simth]

Suppose the Mad Wizard of Areleth is one of your adventuring buddies, and is standing right there with you. He had cast Magnificent Mansion earlier that day, for use as a base in the Labyrinth of Peril, which you are all exploring. Now the party is having trouble finding its way back. Couldn't find the path be used to find the way back to the location of your own camp?

I understand your point, but I am struggling to find a wording that distinguishes the acceptable cases from the unacceptable cases.

The trick is to be the DM interperting it. The spell already states it can only be used to find locations, not creatures or objects. Just do something akin to what's stated in the description of Symbol of Death for triggering it offensively - doesn't work (it gives a specific example of hitting someone with an object set to a touch trigger - nothing happens).

When you think that the party is actually trying to find someone or something, not a location, the spell fails.

Alternately, require a name, that had to have been applied by someone that was there at one point and knew where it was. So "Town Square" or "The intersection of 1st and main" or "the big market" might all refer to the same place in the town you happen to be in - any of them will work. "The Throne Room" will get you to where the king publicly holds court (that's what most people call his throne room) but will only take you to his private privy if the king or his cleaning staff call it that - and so on.

You don't generally think of the spot you just stepped as "the location of my last footstep" - you don't think of it at all, so it goes nameless, and can't be found. To find the epicenter of an earthquake, there'd need to be someone who knew where it was and thought in those terms.

In other words, be a bit more arbitrary with your DMing.

 

[Mr. Patient]

Find the path is literally "I am at point A, and I want to know how to get to point B, how do I do so, safely bypassing traps and secret doors?". Figuring out what point B is isn't really within the spell's ability as described--the way it reads (to me), you have to know what point B is (in terms of locale, not description).

You've raised a number of really intriguing points here and above, but I don't think this is how I would view the spell. It seems to me that the spell *has* to be able to figure out what point B is, just by description. If you were teleported to the middle of a maze you'd never seen before and had to find the exit, find the path ought to work, I think. That seems like the canonical use of the spell, in fact.

Given that, I would argue that finding the literal center (not the source, or the cause, just the geographical center point) of a fixed-in-place, still-occurring magical storm is doing the same thing, so I think it is a valid use of the spell.

For my earthquake example, I'm not so sure, because the divination would not only have to figure out point B, but would also have to know about past events, which may be beyond its scope. It's also open to abuse, as you and Jack have pointed out. Depending on what the caster's intent really is, and how cleverly and precisely he might be able to specify the location, it might be OK. (Man, this spell really needs to be completely reworked or jettisoned for 4e.)

When you think that the party is actually trying to find someone or something, not a location, the spell fails.

I think this is an excellent rule of thumb.

 

[cheshire_grin]

So if you enter a labyrinth it can bring you back to the entrance, since it is familiar to you, but not the exit, since you've never seen it?

But if you *can* find an unknown exit, why not an unknown center? And if the center of a labyrinth, why not the center of a storm which you have just entered? Or the center of the devastation caused by an earthquake?

No, I said "you have to know what point B is", not "you have to be familiar with or have already visited point B". The latter contradicts the example given in the spell description.

Knowing what a locale--an unmoving, at least semi-permanent place--is ("an exit from this labyrinth we've been teleported into") is different from describing the location of a temporary condition or an action ("the last place the Mad Wizard etc cast MM"). The former fits the description and apparent intent of find the path; the latter does not.

 

[cheshire_grin]

You've raised a number of really intriguing points here and above, but I don't think this is how I would view the spell. It seems to me that the spell *has* to be able to figure out what point B is, just by description. If you were teleported to the middle of a maze you'd never seen before and had to find the exit, find the path ought to work, I think. That seems like the canonical use of the spell, in fact.

Absolutely, and I never meant to imply that this use would not work. It's RAW, pure and simple.

Given that, I would argue that finding the literal center (not the source, or the cause, just the geographical center point) of a fixed-in-place, still-occurring magical storm is doing the same thing, so I think it is a valid use of the spell.

This one I think is borderline, open to DM interpretation, but I would be inclined to at least allow it, as long as the PCs knew such a storm existed and weren't just fishing for random interesting locations or something.

For my earthquake example, I'm not so sure, because the divination would not only have to figure out point B, but would also have to know about past events, which may be beyond its scope. It's also open to abuse, as you and Jack have pointed out. Depending on what the caster's intent really is, and how cleverly and precisely he might be able to specify the location, it might be OK. (Man, this spell really needs to be completely reworked or jettisoned for 4e.)

Right, preventing the abuse is really the object. The spell isn't omniscient, it knows only about places, not events.

 

[Mr. Patient]

This one I think is borderline, open to DM interpretation, but I would be inclined to at least allow it, as long as the PCs knew such a storm existed and weren't just fishing for random interesting locations or something.

The case which prompted this thread involves the PCs finding themselves in the middle of a clearly unnatural sandstorm, so it's not just a fishing expedition .