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Finesse rebalance

I've always felt like it should take more time to be switching from melee to a ranged projectile weapon vs. switching from melee to a thrown weapon. ... The rules kind of don't differentiate item manipulation but that is another point to consider.
There is the important act of stringing the bow, you could make that an Action, and require it be un-strung to stow (only slightly arbitrary). If you also impose more plausible RoF on crossbows and slings, that'd about take care of projectile weapons as fast-swapping alternatives to melee.
 

Xeviat

Explorer
There is the important act of stringing the bow, you could make that an Action, and require it be un-strung to stow (only slightly arbitrary). If you also impose more plausible RoF on crossbows and slings, that'd about take care of projectile weapons as fast-swapping alternatives to melee.
Is there a real reason you wouldn't walk around with your bow strung all the time or your crossbow pre-cocked? Does it slowly ruin the bow?
 
Is there a real reason you wouldn't walk around with your bow strung all the time or your crossbow pre-cocked? Does it slowly ruin the bow?
No expert, but I've heard yes with regard to the bow. But I'm fine with arbitrary.

Medieval rossbows, IIRC, weren't like guns - there's no safety, the bolt can just fall out, etc...
 

Xeviat

Explorer
No expert, but I've heard yes with regard to the bow. But I'm fine with arbitrary.

Medieval rossbows, IIRC, weren't like guns - there's no safety, the bolt can just fall out, etc...
For crossbow, I meant cocked, not loaded. You'd still have to fit the bolt on.

I'd only assume keeping the bow constantly pulled would wear out the bow. Something interesting to think on for a more "realistic" game that involved a lot of exploration (don't want to walk around the whole day with your shortbow strung and in your hand).
 
I'd only assume keeping the bow constantly pulled would wear out the bow.
I suspect that'd wear you out. ;)
A quick search of some modern archery guidelines, and, yes, you increase wear on a 'natural material' bow if you leave it strung a long time, apparently even a few hours is worth avoiding. Apparently, a strung bow is under tension and a bit dangerous if the string or stave breaks, too. More detail than D&D generally goes into with weapons.

Adventurers working on a D&D time scale could afford to leave a bow strung all day, even if it meant getting a new bow more often - magical bows are probably fine, if they don't just string themselves when you pick 'em up or something, they're probably enchanted to never wear out.
Because magic makes you just better.
 

Cap'n Kobold

Explorer
What assumptions? That a character will start with a 16 primary stat and increase it to 18 at 4th level?
There were a lot of assumptions made regarding levels, builds, that the paladin was saving all their spells for smites and that the rogue wasn't dual-wielding in melee etc.

Is there a real reason you wouldn't walk around with your bow strung all the time or your crossbow pre-cocked? Does it slowly ruin the bow?
For a bow, keeping it strung for a few hours would not be an issue. You would generally travel with it unstrung though - You're right, keeping it strung for long periods of time would reduce its power.
For a crossbow, keeping it cocked for more than a few minutes would be an issue: the bow part is shorter, thicker, and of a less springy steel than in a modern crossbow. Keeping it under tension for long periods of time would cause it to weaken much more rapidly.
 

Laurefindel

Explorer
I suspect that'd wear you out. ;)
A quick search of some modern archery guidelines, and, yes, you increase wear on a 'natural material' bow if you leave it strung a long time, apparently even a few hours is worth avoiding. Apparently, a strung bow is under tension and a bit dangerous if the string or stave breaks, too. More detail than D&D generally goes into with weapons.
I like to imagine "what's happening" to my character even when the rules don't go into that level of details. If one insists, stringing a bow could be a simple object interaction, or done as part of "drawing" a stowed bow and remain mechanically inconsequential in all but the most specific conditions.

The arms of a composite bow could be replaced cyclically; i'd imagine that a seasoned adventurer would even carry a few spare. I know I do with my composite recurved. Similarly, it could be part of the "off screen" maintenance of a crossbow to re-bend the prongs once in a while, and replace them when the metal is too fatigued.
 

Xeviat

Explorer
For the Rogue, taking away Dex damage would only reduce their damage by a small amount. It also means you wouldn't get many melee Dex characters, which might be what you're wanting.

I miss the 3E weapon system with it's crit ranges and multipliers. The rapier got to deal less damage than the longsword, but had a reason to be.

I feel weird about the longsword not being 1d8, or the Greatsword not being 2d6. Sacred cows and what not.
 

Fenris-77

Explorer
Sacred cows are what things should be designed around, they shouldn't be upstaged by the new kid on the block. The rapier at d8 makes a whole range of sacred cows completely useless. STR based combat in general other than 2H being prime amongst the casualties.

Taking away DEX damage reduces things by more than a small amount IMO, but that's the reason you'd get less DEX-based melee characters (so we mostly agree, I think). If finesse weapons capped at d6 it would have a in-between impact that's maybe more what I'm looking for.

I don't have any problems with the damages mods listed above either.
 

Fenris-77

Explorer
Yeah, yeah, GIF it it laughing boy.:D You can either design around sacred cows or, gasp, change them. What you really shouldn't do is leave them and then design other rules that make them even sillier. The Rapier and finesse are example three on that list.
 
Rapiers need buffed so you can two-weapon fight with a rapier and a dagger. Do you want to look like a teenage mutant ninja tortle wielding two identical weapons, or an Errol Flynn-style sex god carving your initials into your foes and swinging from chandeliers?
 

Elfcrusher

Adventurer
The paladin also loses half that damage (for around 12.5) if he misses one attack, whereas the rogue only loses 1d6 (for around 18 damage).
I think this is a key point about the rogue's effectiveness. And also, as others have noted, that if stuck at range the rogue can just use his bow (often hiding as a bonus action) at full effectiveness.

As a general design thing, I really wish both Dex and Str were somehow used in all attacks. Not only is it logical that a character with 16 Str and 16 Dex should always be more dangerous than somebody with 16 in one and 10 in the other, but it would encourage more variety in point distributions.
 

Xeviat

Explorer
As a general design thing, I really wish both Dex and Str were somehow used in all attacks. Not only is it logical that a character with 16 Str and 16 Dex should always be more dangerous than somebody with 16 in one and 10 in the other, but it would encourage more variety in point distributions.
I'd agree with you if spellcasting followed a similar trend.
 

Xeviat

Explorer
Rapiers need buffed so you can two-weapon fight with a rapier and a dagger. Do you want to look like a teenage mutant ninja tortle wielding two identical weapons, or an Errol Flynn-style sex god carving your initials into your foes and swinging from chandeliers?
Since 1d8+1d4 is the same as 1d6+1d6, I'd say this could be a feature of the dagger (though, since the dagger has throwing, I tend to consider the dagger to be on par with the shortsword in balance calculation, and thus it's too powerful as a simple weapon but is okay as a martial weapon; since simple weapon users rarely use their weapons anyway, it doesn't matter).
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
As a general design thing, I really wish both Dex and Str were somehow used in all attacks. Not only is it logical that a character with 16 Str and 16 Dex should always be more dangerous than somebody with 16 in one and 10 in the other, but it would encourage more variety in point distributions.
I've long thought that Dex should be used to hit and Str for damage with all weapons. It makes sense - with all weapons, skill, speed, and precision are key to landing your strikes, and stronger people's strikes hit harder (or can use bows with higher draw weights). Although, I think to make this work you'd want a more granular armor table. If martial characters need Dex to hit anyway, heavy armor just ends up offering the same AC they can get with light for a lot more gold and carry weight. So, I think more variety of Dex caps and Str minimums would be necessary to keep this balanced.

I'd agree with you if spellcasting followed a similar trend.
I don't think that'd be a bad idea at all. Int to hit, Cha to damage maybe? While we're at it, have Wis add to AC instead of Dex so you don't have to mess with the armor table and every ability has a direct combat application (Str adds to weapon damage, Dex to weapon attacks, Con adds to HP, Wis adds to AC, Int adds to spell attacks/save DCs, and Cha adds to spell damage.)
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
Since 1d8+1d4 is the same as 1d6+1d6, I'd say this could be a feature of the dagger (though, since the dagger has throwing, I tend to consider the dagger to be on par with the shortsword in balance calculation, and thus it's too powerful as a simple weapon but is okay as a martial weapon; since simple weapon users rarely use their weapons anyway, it doesn't matter).
Deja Vu. I think I've made this exact post before.

Worth noting though, as per the improvised weapon rules, you can throw any melee weapon for 1d4 damage at 20ft/60ft ranges. And since the dagger's damage die is already 1d4, the thrown property on it doesn't actually change its functionality at all.

You could make a martial "Main Gauche" weapon that does 1d4, finesse, light, and has the special property of being able to be dual-wielded with a non-light weapon in the other hand. Or, if calling it "Main Gauche" feels too specific, call it a dagger, and change the current dagger's name to knife. Or put the special property of being able to dual-wield with a dagger on the Rapier, I guess.
 

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