D&D 5E (2014) Finesse rebalance

[Gadget]

I like making Finesse only allow adding Dex to the hit roll, and still using Str for damage.

 

[Gladius Legis]

An idea I've been playing around with recently is keeping DEX to attack and damage for finesse, but the character must also have a certain STR score to be able to wield the weapon in a finesse manner. The STR requirement would vary depending on the weapon.

A dagger's STR requirement to finesse would be pretty low, say STR 9. Shortsword finesse could require STR 11, and the rapier STR 13.

The idea would be to put a major disincentive on all these STR 8 finesse builds, while at the same time not unduly punishing DEX-based melee with lower damage. If you want to finesse anything, you need to invest at least some into STR, but at least your damage is up to par.

 

[Remathilis]

If you think the rapier is too good, would you use this? What does it break? (DEX-clerics?) How can we improve it?

Here is the question: what problem are you trying to fix?

Is the problem one about certain builds (such as rapier/shield fighters)? Is it a problem with the weapon table balance? Is it a problem with finesse being a default build for certain "skirmisher" classes (rogue, monk, ranger)? Is it a problem with certain weapons being neglected in favor of finesse weapons?

Lets look at each separately.

First, the weapon table is hopelessly fubar. Seriously, heavy weapons begin and end with greatsword, tridents are martial spears, rapiers are king of finesse, and there is no reason to ever use a heavy crossbow since the only classes proficient in it gain extra attacks that make it a trap option. If you're going to try to fix the weapon table by changing finesse, you are only doing one of nearly a dozen fixes needed to balance that table.

Second, I have no problem with rogues, rangers, and monks using finesse weapons as the default fighting style. Rogues don't always get sneak attack, monks need it as the only way to get consistent damage, and rangers need all the help they can get dual-wielding. Either your are weakening all of these classes (by making them wait/pay for the damage boost) making them all MAD, or giving them a benefit that replicates what they get anyway, to which I ask what is the problem?

Third, the fighting style is basically a tax. You are basically giving a scaling dueling style + protection style for non-heavy armor. You've also killed dual-wielding stone dead as, barring a feat, you can only dual wield light weapons and all but one finesse weapon is light, meaning the two-weapon fighting becomes "using a greatsword, but requiring two to-hit rolls". Dual Wielding has it hard enough as is.

Finally, you're really only delaying the acquisition of dex-to-damage by a level (fighting style for ranger/paladin) or three (feat for non-vumans). Anyone serious about the style is going invest the resource in it anyway, and your back at square one around 5th level. If giving dex-weapons a 1-3 point damage penalty in tier 1 is big concern, then go for it. I barely think its worth the hassle.

So if you are going to change finesse, be prepared for a lot of options to become sub-optimal, dual wielding being the primary example.

 

[Charlaquin]

Here is the question: what problem are you trying to fix?

Is the problem one about certain builds (such as rapier/shield fighters)? Is it a problem with the weapon table balance? Is it a problem with finesse being a default build for certain "skirmisher" classes (rogue, monk, ranger)? Is it a problem with certain weapons being neglected in favor of finesse weapons?

Speaking for myself, none of the above. The problem is that Dexterity can do everything Strength can do and more. The only reason for a martial character to invest in strength at all is
a. If the DM is actually tracking encumbrance
b. If they’re building for Great Weapon Master and/or Polearm Master
c. If they feel like it and don’t mind building a suboptimal character.

a is very rarely a concern, and b is dependent on an optional rule.

The fact that fixing this problem also addresses the problems you mentioned in one way or another is all the more reason to do so.

 

[Remathilis]

Speaking for myself, none of the above. The problem is that Dexterity can do everything Strength can do and more. The only reason for a martial character to invest in strength at all is
a. If the DM is actually tracking encumbrance
b. If they’re building for Great Weapon Master and/or Polearm Master
c. If they feel like it and don’t mind building a suboptimal character.

a is very rarely a concern, and b is dependent on an optional rule.

The fact that fixing this problem also addresses the problems you mentioned in one way or another is all the more reason to do so.

d. They tend to climb, jump, swim and other Athletics abilities.
e. They opt to wear heavy armor
f. They push, shove, trip, or grapple.

I've yet to see a Strength fighter that is truly suboptimal. The biggest concern is that Dex saves are more prevalent than Str saves, and Initiative is keyed off Dex. That said, the only place I see 8 Str/18 Dex fighters is Char-Op boards and theorycrafted DPS spreadsheets.

 

[Shiroiken]

Speaking for myself, none of the above. The problem is that Dexterity can do everything Strength can do and more. The only reason for a martial character to invest in strength at all is
a. If the DM is actually tracking encumbrance
b. If they’re building for Great Weapon Master and/or Polearm Master
c. If they feel like it and don’t mind building a suboptimal character.

a is very rarely a concern, and b is dependent on an optional rule.

The fact that fixing this problem also addresses the problems you mentioned in one way or another is all the more reason to do so.

When you look at Dex, it is one of the better ability scores, being in the top 3 for a majority of character designs (i.e. every non-str based attacker), but it isn't "better" than Str in every way, unless the DM allows it to be so.

Jumping, Climbing, and Swimming are all Strength/Athletics checks, and despite their objections, I've seen quite a few Dex based characters suffer greatly for leaving Str in the toilet. You also forgot that grappling requires Str to use, and I've seen that as a valid strategy. If you don't track your max carry (and container capacity, which is actually more of a limiting factor), then you are cheating as a player, even if the DM doesn't. Dex saves generally just reduce/negate damage, whereas many Str saves are "save or suck" effects that can really disrupt a character in combat.

 

[Arilyn]

A weak character should never hit harder than a strong character, all else being equal. In my opinion, you could just have finesse weapons add Strength to damage instead of Dex, and leave everything else as-is. Maybe we'd actually get a character with decent Strength and Dexterity, once in a while.

Yes, yes. I'm tired of 18 str. and 8 dex. or 18 dex. and 8 str. warriors. It makes no sense. A true fighter is going to be strong and nimble. Would you really want to enter into battle all buffed up but super clumsy, or very nimble with strength of tissue paper? I know, it's D&D, and D&D often makes little sense, but this one always bothered me.

 

[Shiroiken]

That said, the only place I see 8 Str/18 Dex fighters is Char-Op boards and theorycrafted DPS spreadsheets.

I've seen a few in play, but not many. The first I saw was a half-elf paladin, who worked out moderately well, but was well behind the DPS of the great weapon barbarian and red dragon sorcerer. The next was an elf fighter/eldritch knight, but he was an archer so that's to be expected. The final one I've seen was a rogue who multi-classed into fighter (champion) to try and increase the chance of critical sneak attack, and he was... mediocre.

 

[Remathilis]

I've seen a few in play, but not many. The first I saw was a half-elf paladin, who worked out moderately well, but was well behind the DPS of the great weapon barbarian and red dragon sorcerer. The next was an elf fighter/eldritch knight, but he was an archer so that's to be expected. The final one I've seen was a rogue who multi-classed into fighter (champion) to try and increase the chance of critical sneak attack, and he was... mediocre.

I have seen archers (which I wasn't counting, as ranged characters they don't have much choice in Str) and I have seen an elf EK with better dex and a rapier, but I've seen plenty of paladins, barbarians, fighters, and even rangers in medium/heavy armor with longswords. None of them suffered for it. The idea that Dex is automatically better than Strength is really based on Dex having a much better save, and of course Init.

 

[Horwath]

We just bumped up all non finesse melee weapon damage dice by one step. Or two...

I.E.
Long sword: 1d8 -> 1d10
Great sword/axe 2d6/1d12 -> 2d8
quarterstaff: 1d6(1d8) -> 1d8(1d10)
great club: 1d8 -> 1d12