Finland to pay all its citizens 800 euros a month to fight unemployment

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The idea applies for skilled positions. Most often it seems to be coupled with requests to increase H1B visa quotas (non-immigrant speciality worker visas).

Anyways, from an economics view, a shortage is viewed as a result of combinations of supply and demand and substitutability. Economically, saying there is a shortage is the equivalent of complaining about high prices as a buyer.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...th-to-fight-unemployment/page15#ixzz3uaSIURRL

Thx!
TomB

Regardless of why the shortage exists, training poor people to fill those spots is win-win. They get filled, people are no longer poor, and the economy gains functional contributors instead of people having to be given money to survive. It's also cheaper to do since it doesn't take all that long to train people, so the increased short term expense is less than the long term expense we currently have.
 

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Regardless of why the shortage exists, training poor people to fill those spots is win-win. They get filled, people are no longer poor, and the economy gains functional contributors instead of people having to be given money to survive. It's also cheaper to do since it doesn't take all that long to train people, so the increased short term expense is less than the long term expense we currently have.

It depends on what skill.

I can't find competent developers. Not that programmers don't exist, but the good ones cost too much, and anybody cheaper really lacks the lobes for understanding the language and learning a business (every programming gig involves learning somebody else's industry to write the code for it).


Let's get more practical. Where are the shortages right now? Nursing is one that's been around for awhile.

anybody under 110 IQ need not apply. Too stupid to cram all that book learning in and apply it to real world situations where legal liability for mishandling medical situations is high.

So bam, half the population is out on qualifying for that job (100 IQ or something is average, which means half the population is below the average).

Burger flipping? Sorry, I got robots coming in to do that.

trash man? Just replaced the guys in back with a robot arm and special cans. Google is working on killing the driver as we speak.

Right now, the US is at about 5% unemployment (per the # I heard a week ago). Pretty good improvement since the big crash under Bush and Repubs called Americans lazy when we were at record highs for unemployment due to the crash because nobody was hiring.

This quite possibly mostly covers folks who are actually lazy, or are truly unemployable (low IQ, brains baked on pot, whatever). These folks, if left alone, will starve to death or turn to crime like Jean ValJean did. So paying them off is a small sacrifice to ease the last bit of the crime rate down since, as I said, Eugenics is frowned upon. They are the noise in the system. Just like having folks speed on the highways. They are mis-using what my tax dollars paid for, but I can't kill them in a gas chamber for a variety of excellent reasons.

I once heard a quote. Dogs get trained. People are taught. Anybody you "train" for a job, ain't a job that anybody should want. It'll be a crap burger flipping dead end. The servitor caste we have needs more money to make ends meet, because they are stuck in jobs they were trained for, and don't qualify for anything better, and can't get into school to be taught for a career because they don't have money, and they are stuck working 2 McJobs to make ends meet.

It sucks for people on the bottom, and ideas like "train them for jobs that are in demand" are often lacking logistical completeness. The same issue those same folks decry about "handing out free money".

So present an idea that actually solves the entire problem, not just a platitude. Try to sound like you've got some compassion, rather than disdain for folks in the situation.
 

It depends on what skill.

I can't find competent developers. Not that programmers don't exist, but the good ones cost too much, and anybody cheaper really lacks the lobes for understanding the language and learning a business (every programming gig involves learning somebody else's industry to write the code for it).

Let's get more practical. Where are the shortages right now? Nursing is one that's been around for awhile.

anybody under 110 IQ need not apply. Too stupid to cram all that book learning in and apply it to real world situations where legal liability for mishandling medical situations is high.

You don't need a 110 IQ to be a nurse, EMT, or many other skilled jobs.

Google is working on killing the driver as we speak.

That's what I'm afraid of ;)

Seriously, though, my car will never drive for me.

Right now, the US is at about 5% unemployment (per the # I heard a week ago). Pretty good improvement since the big crash under Bush and Repubs called Americans lazy when we were at record highs for unemployment due to the crash because nobody was hiring.

That's a phantom number to make the government look good. It doesn't count people who are discouraged and have stopped looking for work.

This quite possibly mostly covers folks who are actually lazy, or are truly unemployable (low IQ, brains baked on pot, whatever). These folks, if left alone, will starve to death or turn to crime like Jean ValJean did. So paying them off is a small sacrifice to ease the last bit of the crime rate down since, as I said, Eugenics is frowned upon. They are the noise in the system. Just like having folks speed on the highways. They are mis-using what my tax dollars paid for, but I can't kill them in a gas chamber for a variety of excellent reasons.

I once heard a quote. Dogs get trained. People are taught. Anybody you "train" for a job, ain't a job that anybody should want. It'll be a crap burger flipping dead end. The servitor caste we have needs more money to make ends meet, because they are stuck in jobs they were trained for, and don't qualify for anything better, and can't get into school to be taught for a career because they don't have money, and they are stuck working 2 McJobs to make ends meet.

It sucks for people on the bottom, and ideas like "train them for jobs that are in demand" are often lacking logistical completeness. The same issue those same folks decry about "handing out free money".

A lot of people are poor due to making some bad choices when young. Having a baby, dropping out of school for one reason or another, or some other circumstance. Once poor and in the system, the system is currently designed to make it prohibitively hard to get educated and pull yourself out. Lots of people are in that situation. The need to be "taught" a skill so that they can contribute.
 

You don't need a 110 IQ to be a nurse, EMT, or many other skilled jobs.



That's what I'm afraid of ;)

Seriously, though, my car will never drive for me.



That's a phantom number to make the government look good. It doesn't count people who are discouraged and have stopped looking for work.



A lot of people are poor due to making some bad choices when young. Having a baby, dropping out of school for one reason or another, or some other circumstance. Once poor and in the system, the system is currently designed to make it prohibitively hard to get educated and pull yourself out. Lots of people are in that situation. The need to be "taught" a skill so that they can contribute.

Actually yes you do need to be highly intelligent to be a nurse or an emt, you not only need to be intelligent you need to be able to cope with high stakes, high stress, situations where people's lives are literally on the line, and you often need to do it while being under rested and under paid (and to thankless patients no less). Not everyone can be trained or taught the skills for that job. I'm a fairly intelligent individual, and I'm not going to even remotely say I can do a nursing or emt job. I can remember all the medical knowledge, but I couldn't deal with the on the ground ins and outs of actually doing the job. There is a reason that there is a nursing shortage, and its because it takes a special kind of person to do that job.

While the 5% number is a BS number that ignores those no longer looking for work (making it at best an estimation), it does represent something... The number of people that should be looking for a job. Let's face it we live in the damn future and robots are taking our jobs. Heck my last programming/qa job was writing automation. A.K.A. creating a robot to eventually do my job for me. I was quite literally programming my own replacement. The plus side of that is that we don't all need to work anymore we have robots to do the menial and repetitive labor. All we need to be able to do is repair the robots, and that takes significantly less manpower. A reality of the future we are entering is that in that future, in the advanced countries, people without advanced degrees, and skills, won't have a lot to do work wise. As we automate and allow tech to solve more and more of our problems the need for people to also do the tasks we've set up robots to do evaporates. It is important to keep passing the skills on to humans as a means of redundancy, but robots can assemble a burger and fries for me as well as clean the table and mop the floor of the dining area I eat my food in. We've already basically removed the cashier position in a lot of stores (especially the grocery store), we replaced 5 to 10 jobs with 1 job, and those 4 to 9 other jobs are never coming back.

The jobs we are going to need filled moving forward are skilled trades like mechanics, carpenters, plumbers electricians, masons, welders, and many other things you can learn at a vocational high school (which after long enough will be eliminated by still more robots though those are a bit more down the road), and high end careers such as doctors, lawyers, nurses and the programmers and engineers that make the robots that eliminate the need for other workers. Not all of these positions are things that all people can do, there are barriers to entry, both physical and mental (depending upon the position we are talking about), and there is the simple fact that some people can't do any of those things. It isn't due to any real disability just a lack of exceptionality.

As we bustle into that future (ludite all you want that's where we are headed) we have to accept that a lot of people aren't going to be working anymore, and there literally won't be anything for them to do in the actual workforce because the need for the jobs they could do no longer exists. Those people don't deserve death by starvation simply because they are not exceptional human beings, their mediocrity is not a sin punishable by death, and as we evolve our society we need to take care of those that we've actively taken work away from via advancement in both technology and geopolitics.

Essentially your constant insistence that everyone needs to "contribute" or work towards "contributing" in order to warrant their being kept alive is an old way of thinking that just needs to go because it doesn't take into account the issue of there actively not being any work for them to do. It also ignores contributions outside of productivity within the workforce such as supporting those that are exceptional and do the jobs that require some level of exceptionality.

I'm not even saying it is a totally bad idea. More training available to those in poverty helps in a lot of ways, it not only might find people that otherwise never would have attempted work in a trade it also gives jobs to those that know a trade, but can't actually hack it on the job site (those that can't do teach). However the simple fact is that even if we train a million plumbers we won't ever need a million plumbers, and again not every person can learn any skill. I went to a vocational school, I've actively watched people that couldn't grasp ohms law, and its further implications (things you need to know to be a competent electrician), there are barriers to entry for skilled positions that some people just can't get past, and insisting that people must be trained for whatever the market demands of them ignores the simple fact that not every person can do everything.

Like I'm not saying people shouldn't try or anything like that. You'll never know for a fact that you shouldn't be doing something until you've tried doing that thing and failed at it, but it's okay to not be good at things, we aren't fighting for life in the mud anymore. I'm just saying that sometimes someone's best really isn't good enough, and we should stop trying to live by utter BS we feed children to motivate them to try things, and develop solutions that confront the cold realities.
 
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Something I'm thinking is happening here in the US which works against the notion of giving out money is that there seem to be a lot of forces which push people in entirely the other direction: Forces which make folks continuously short on money and as a result forced to work harder to make ends meet, or resulting in general disenfranchisement.

Giving out money short circuits those forces and creates pathologies.

I'm generally for making it easier to assist people, but I think at the same time we have to work on the forces which are making it harder for people, or, we won't solve many problems.

For example, if you have half decent credit, there seems to be no end to loan offers. (Back in the day of easy mortgage money I had a 3/4 mil loan thrown at me. It was ludicrous and would have been a foolish loan for both me and the lender.)

Or, look at the legal environment around Ferguson, where the civil government was setup as an extortion racket. Or at the problems relating to student loans. Or the disproportionate impact of law enforcement on minorities.

Thx!
TomB
 

One societal role that I haven't seen mentioned that I think is prime for such a guaranteed income is that of a stay-at-home parent. Such a person is not lazy, or disabled, or very often under any other condition that 'warrants' government assistance. Teaching them a skill is superfluous, because they're choosing to stay home to raise their kids; they're already doing a job - notably one that's not simply 9-5 weekdays - but generally speaking, society hasn't seen fit to reward such parents with income.

Some places (such as Canada) do have government child benefits, but they're meant to support the child, not the parent providing care.
 

Actually yes you do need to be highly intelligent to be a nurse or an emt, you not only need to be intelligent you need to be able to cope with high stakes, high stress, situations where people's lives are literally on the line, and you often need to do it while being under rested and under paid (and to thankless patients no less). Not everyone can be trained or taught the skills for that job. I'm a fairly intelligent individual, and I'm not going to even remotely say I can do a nursing or emt job. I can remember all the medical knowledge, but I couldn't deal with the on the ground ins and outs of actually doing the job. There is a reason that there is a nursing shortage, and its because it takes a special kind of person to do that job.

Average intelligence is all that is required. You don't need to be highly intelligent to cope. You don't need to be highly intelligent to learn what to do to save lives. I've met many nurses who aren't highly intelligent. You're going to need to back up your claim.

While the 5% number is a BS number that ignores those no longer looking for work (making it at best an estimation), it does represent something... The number of people that should be looking for a job. Let's face it we live in the damn future and robots are taking our jobs. Heck my last programming/qa job was writing automation. A.K.A. creating a robot to eventually do my job for me. I was quite literally programming my own replacement. The plus side of that is that we don't all need to work anymore we have robots to do the menial and repetitive labor. All we need to be able to do is repair the robots, and that takes significantly less manpower. A reality of the future we are entering is that in that future, in the advanced countries, people without advanced degrees, and skills, won't have a lot to do work wise. As we automate and allow tech to solve more and more of our problems the need for people to also do the tasks we've set up robots to do evaporates. It is important to keep passing the skills on to humans as a means of redundancy, but robots can assemble a burger and fries for me as well as clean the table and mop the floor of the dining area I eat my food in. We've already basically removed the cashier position in a lot of stores (especially the grocery store), we replaced 5 to 10 jobs with 1 job, and those 4 to 9 other jobs are never coming back.

I'm not sure how talking about unskilled labor being replaced is a counter to my argument that we have a large surplus of skilled jobs just sitting there.

The jobs we are going to need filled moving forward are skilled trades like mechanics, carpenters, plumbers electricians, masons, welders, and many other things you can learn at a vocational high school (which after long enough will be eliminated by still more robots though those are a bit more down the road), and high end careers such as doctors, lawyers, nurses and the programmers and engineers that make the robots that eliminate the need for other workers. Not all of these positions are things that all people can do, there are barriers to entry, both physical and mental (depending upon the position we are talking about), and there is the simple fact that some people can't do any of those things. It isn't due to any real disability just a lack of exceptionality.

If and when we start replacing skilled positions like those with robots, we can re-examine things. As it stands, all that is needed is to train, I mean "teach" people skills to take these jobs.

As we bustle into that future (ludite all you want that's where we are headed) we have to accept that a lot of people aren't going to be working anymore, and there literally won't be anything for them to do in the actual workforce because the need for the jobs they could do no longer exists. Those people don't deserve death by starvation simply because they are not exceptional human beings, their mediocrity is not a sin punishable by death, and as we evolve our society we need to take care of those that we've actively taken work away from via advancement in both technology and geopolitics.

We aren't anywhere close to this. Replacing burger flippers with a robot is a lot easier than replacing a nurse or paralegal. We may never get there.

Essentially your constant insistence that everyone needs to "contribute" or work towards "contributing" in order to warrant their being kept alive is an old way of thinking that just needs to go because it doesn't take into account the issue of there actively not being any work for them to do. It also ignores contributions outside of productivity within the workforce such as supporting those that are exceptional and do the jobs that require some level of exceptionality.

There is work for them to do. As things currently stand, you do not need to be exceptional for most of these skilled positions.

I'm not even saying it is a totally bad idea. More training available to those in poverty helps in a lot of ways, it not only might find people that otherwise never would have attempted work in a trade it also gives jobs to those that know a trade, but can't actually hack it on the job site (those that can't do teach). However the simple fact is that even if we train a million plumbers we won't ever need a million plumbers, and again not every person can learn any skill. I went to a vocational school, I've actively watched people that couldn't grasp ohms law, and its further implications (things you need to know to be a competent electrician), there are barriers to entry for skilled positions that some people just can't get past, and insisting that people must be trained for whatever the market demands of them ignores the simple fact that not every person can do everything.

I'm not now, nor have I ever advocate for just forcing people to become plumbers. Aptitude tests exist and can be used to help the person who can't grasp ohms law, but who can remember medications, traumas, and cope with life threatening emergencies, become a nurse.

If these people are "taught" skills, and we remove the mentally ill from the streets and take care of them as we should be doing, there will be plenty of charity shelters with room for those who are lazy and don't want to work to find free food and lodging. The government doesn't need to be giving free money for nothing.
 

What are these piles of skilled jobs that are just laying around please? Can you cite us with some information. I am more curious than anything. Considering how rough it is for some people to find work that are looking, what trades do you think they should reeducate themselves in, so they can cash in on these positions that are just waiting to be filled.
 

What are these piles of skilled jobs that are just laying around please? Can you cite us with some information. I am more curious than anything. Considering how rough it is for some people to find work that are looking, what trades do you think they should reeducate themselves in, so they can cash in on these positions that are just waiting to be filled.
http://www.cnbc.com/2014/06/10/jobs-are-available-but-americans-lack-skills.html

"If we still didn't have this large supply of surplus labor that doesn't have the required skill set, the JOLTs data would say something much more powerful," said Ward McCarthy, chief financial economist at Jefferies.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-bridgeland/americas-job-surplus_b_840148.html

"Today, America has only 45 million workers who have the training and skills to fill 97 million jobs that require some post-secondary education."



There's a lot more, but that should be sufficient I think. The second article is more than 4 1/2 years old. The first from last year. This has been going on a for a while. 45+ million surplus jobs is more than 5% of the population. If the government is to be believed, and it isn't because this administration is the least trustworthy since Nixon, that's enough jobs to end unemployment in this country.
 

http://www.cnbc.com/2014/06/10/jobs-are-available-but-americans-lack-skills.html

"If we still didn't have this large supply of surplus labor that doesn't have the required skill set, the JOLTs data would say something much more powerful," said Ward McCarthy, chief financial economist at Jefferies.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-bridgeland/americas-job-surplus_b_840148.html

"Today, America has only 45 million workers who have the training and skills to fill 97 million jobs that require some post-secondary education."



There's a lot more, but that should be sufficient I think. The second article is more than 4 1/2 years old. The first from last year. This has been going on a for a while. 45+ million surplus jobs is more than 5% of the population. If the government is to be believed, and it isn't because this administration is the least trustworthy since Nixon, that's enough jobs to end unemployment in this country.

So let's assume that's accurate, though I'm not sure what kind of jobs those were.

Perry liked to tout how he made more jobs in TX during the recession, but guess what, those jobs paid less than the ones that were lost, so "skilled workers" weren't going to settle, they were going somewhere else.

That means jobs as numbers aren't enough. They have to not suck. Roustabout jobs in the Dakota's may be high paying and recruiting, but not everybody's willing to leave their family for 6 months to live in their pickup truck to take a shift down there (and yes, that's what those jobs are like). They are also dangerous.

I'm not going to shame somebody for not wanting certain kinds of jobs, even though I was plenty willing to move 1500 miles to get my big job. That ain't how most people are wired.
 

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