Firearms: Reloading, Speed Loading, and ammo clips (4e)

[skotothalamos]

One of our new characters is trying to build a Gunsmith Ranger and we're having a disagreement about reloading.

The Ammunition Clip gives a weapon 5 or 6 shots before it has to be reloaded. Then it also says reloading is now a minor action (or free with Speed Loader).

I was thinking it needed a minor action to chamber each new round (we're talking lever-action repeater here, not semi-automatic M1 Garand, right?) and then you would use a standard to reload a full clip. The player says it just talks about reloading the clip as a minor action (which, seriously? Even modern combatants with fully-automatic rifles have to take a break in the constant stream of fire to reload).

so.. I was thinking the time between firing two bullets would be as such:

Standard Action: normal firearm
Move Action: normal firearm with Speed Loader feat
Minor Action: firearm with ammunition clip
Free Action: firearm with ammunition clip, in combination with Speed Loader feat

i'll probably house-rule it that way for my game anyway, but i was curious what the actual intent was.

 

[RangerWickett]

I was thinking of this (ridiculous reloading starts 30 seconds in): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ5Pts9dUdA&t=30

That said, perhaps it would have been more accurate to make it work the way you have it, so that it still takes at least a minor action with both a clip and Speed Loader.

 

[tomBitonti]

All sorts of game issues get in the way of a realistic model: Balance; comparison with bows and crossbows; considerations of other features (say, lethality, and rate of fire), which are probably very far off anyways.

In the end, the result must be comparable to what else is in the game.

Reload times for crossbows seem to fit pretty well. If you re-used those, you would not need to invent new game mechanics. A firearm seems about the same as a rapid fire crossbow.

Thx!

TomB

 

[Samuel Cole]

First, apologies for the thread necro; I thought it'd be better to continue the conversation than to launch a new thread.

In keeping with the Gunslinging Ranger concept, I wonder how the build would work in the early levels? It seems like there's no viable way for a Ranger to use a firearm as his or her primary weapon since so many of the Ranger powers are multi-attack - Twin Strike, etc, are the Ranger's bread and butter, but you can't use them with a weapon that only fires every other round. (Even taking Speed Loader at 1st level does not make firearms accessible for Ranger powers.)

So how would you handle this? Would you suggest that the Ranger focus on crossbows until her or she reaches level 5? Or have the Ranger begin by fighting mostly in melee, using firearms as a once-per-encounter shot, and then eventually graduate to firing every round? Or would you suggest a different class entirely, like a Rogue?

 

[RangerWickett]

What is it about the ranger that appeals to you? Ranged attacks and high damage? If so, thief (rogue) gets the job done pretty simply. Wilderness-y stuff? The hunter ranger from Essentials is pretty nifty, and with a bit of reskinning it wouldn't be too far afield to have things make sense. Like, when he attacks a target and everyone adjacent, maybe he just whips out a sawed-off shotgun.

 

[Samuel Cole]

Ranged attacks and high damage?

Errrrrrr....... yeah, that's pretty much it, to be honest. When I think of a classic gunslinger archetype, I think of a guy who stands a ways away from the fight while firing projectiles, which sounds like a ranger to me. I also imagine gunslingers as being fairly wildernessy, whether you're talking about a cowboy in a western or Roland in the Dark Tower. I hadn't put any more thought into it than that.

So it seems that the answer is "yes, rangers make bad gunslingers, especially for the first few levels, but there are other, better options for that kind of character," which is super-useful to know. I'll probably encourage the player to make a rogue; I'll give the hunter-ranger a look, but I've tended to avoid essentials classes.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Siberys]

I think it worth pointing out that the Rogue build [MENTION=63]RangerWickett[/MENTION] suggested was the Thief, which is /also/ an essentials class.

The gunslinger may still work with the rogue, though. They're generally assumed to be using Crossbows anyways if they're doing anything ranged.

Now that I think about it, though, Isn't there some rule about reloading for ranged multiattacks being free? EDIT: Though that may have been addressed in the Zeitgeist Player's Guide... It's been a while.

 

[Samuel Cole]

Yup. From the player's guide:

Reloading a firearm takes a standard action. Normally powers that let you make multiple ranged attacks let you reload freely between attacks,but you cannot freely reload firearms in this way. For that reason, a typical character might carry one or two loaded firearms to use as a once-per-encounter weapon.

I think that's a good ruling, honestly. While it's mechanically inconvenient for ranger gunsmiths, it prioritizes preserving the flavor of firearms over making the mechanics convenient.

I built a crossbow rogue (non-essentials) earlier today, and think it could work pretty well. The main disadvantages are the loss of mobility (you're using your move action to reload every turn, which encourages a stationary sniping position) and you can't use your gun for opportunity attacks (if you fire your gun as an OA, it won't be loaded in time for your next turn).

Together, these considerations lead you to make a hybrid melee/ranged build, prioritizing powers that can work with either, and swapping back and forth between a blade and a gun a la Jack Sparrow. It might not be 100% optimized, but it's really cool flavor.


edit: Deft Strike can alleviate some of the mobility issues.

 

[hirou]

Two magic items, which make early level gunslinger ranger viable:
-Battle harness armor - improves initiative and allows to bring out new weapon as a free action
-Swiftshot weapon - improves reload speed by one category (not by RAW, but I allowed it; together with Speed Loader feat it improves firearms reload to minor action)
You will probably have some problems at level 1, when you don't have any magic items, but afterwards it's relatively easy to keep a supply of loaded weapons at hand. Note that Gunslinger theme allows you to share an enhancement bonus of your primary weapons with others, so all your weapons will generally have a decent to-hit bonus.
Our ronger/rogue hybrid carries several pistols, carbine (named Maria), shotgun and a dozen grenades, just to be sure...