Fireballs, Force Orbs, and Ranged Attacks

[catsclaw227]

I'd gathered the impression that, for example, a Close Burst 1 radiates 1 square from the caster's space... so if it's cast by a Medium creature, it takes up an area three-squares-on-a-side, but if it's cast by a Large creature, it takes up an area four-squares-on-a-side.

As written in the DDXP sheets, Force Orb's secondary attack affects any creature adjacent to the primary target. So if the primary target is Large, the secondary attack will affect any creature in any of the twelve squares adjacent to that primary target.

Or if there are a few dozen minions seated at a 40-foot long table, you should be able to zap the table as your primary target, and get the secondary attack on any minion adjacent to the table.

And this is the problem with "adjacent target" definition as we know it at this time. Hopefully this will get clarified in the Final rules. i.e. adjacent target, max Close Burst size.

 

[deathdonut]

Are you suggesting that DMs at RPGA events have no place being DMs because they are responsible for keeping with the RAW regarding how spells are used?

I apologize for my tone there it came off both condescending and arguementative which is pretty difficult to pull off.

I was thinking in terms of a traditional campaign DM (which I am) and not that of the event rules arbitrator (which I am not). I actually happen to like rules arbitration in most situations, but there's a switch in my head that turns to 'keep them fuzzy' mode when I start thinking of Roleplaying Rules. Otherwise, my inner power-gamer triest to bust out of his shell.

If I were to answer the topic in the spirit of the rules-lawyer, I would agree that players wanting to use this spell as an area effect would have to target a medium sized motionless object (the ground in that square) and would still have to roll to hit it. A miss would result in exactly zero effect.

I would hate to see even an event GM go by this ruling, but I admit I'm not sure what their limitations are when it comes to flexibility.

In any case, sorry for the tone. I obviously needed coffee.

 

[catsclaw227]

No worries.

I prefer to live in 'keep them fuzzy' mode as well, but unfortunately, not all players like it that way. Some want to have the hard and fast rules so that they can either exclude certain spells from some situations, or powergame to da max if the table rules are a little wobbly.

 

[DreamChaser]

I think that, depending on how 4e defines terrain and the combat grid, the ground may prove problematic.

It will be interesting to see how the rules actually shape up on this (or if Force Orb actually got a minor tweak before the final printing).

This could be approached from a Platonic perspective.

We have three basic concepts: creature / person, object / thing, place / area. When thinking, one could argue that a concept can be one thing but not more than one. They can also range from the specific, to the general, to the relative.

Creature: Ug the ogre, ogres, the nearest ogre.
Object: The Round table, furniture, the nearest item of furniture
Place: The King's Palace, a room, a 30' burst 100 feet away.

Now...by this, I think the ground would be thought of by most people as a place rather than a thing...so I would rule that the ground would not be a valid target for this spell. By this philosophical argument.

That said, I would still permit a table (even a 40' long one) or a rock within an otherwise empty space to be the target so it becomes irrelevant.

DC

 

[Surgoshan]

Back in college I studied karate. It was great; the classes took place in the gymnasium, as in the place where the gymnastics teams practiced. In addition to the usual balance beams and parallel and unparallel bars and rings and whatnot there was also the great big open space where they practiced the floor routine. It was, essentially, giant springs holding up plywood sheets, all covered with carpet and padding. Learning how to fall on that was a blessing.

Anywho, what with warming up and practicing kata and techniques we'd often get quite sweaty. There were water fountains, of course, but I preferred to bring my own in a bottle because as much fun as metal is, I don't enjoy it in my drinking water. I vividly recall one time after taking a swig of water I tossed the mostly full bottle off the practice area onto the thick, foam mat under a balance beam.

That is to say, I tried. The bottle manage to hit the edge of the mat such that it bounced over a foot-wide strip of wooden floor and land back on the exercise area. A few people gently mocked me, and with good reason, because I'd thrown the bottle at the floor and missed.

Just FYI, it's possible to miss the ground.

 

[Imban]

I'd gathered the impression that, for example, a Close Burst 1 radiates 1 square from the caster's space... so if it's cast by a Medium creature, it takes up an area three-squares-on-a-side, but if it's cast by a Large creature, it takes up an area four-squares-on-a-side.

As written in the DDXP sheets, Force Orb's secondary attack affects any creature adjacent to the primary target. So if the primary target is Large, the secondary attack will affect any creature in any of the twelve squares adjacent to that primary target.

Or if there are a few dozen minions seated at a 40-foot long table, you should be able to zap the table as your primary target, and get the secondary attack on any minion adjacent to the table.

-Hyp.

It seems a reasonable impression from what we know of the rules, but seems somewhat overwhelmingly odd, in my opinion. It's one of those things where I can visualize it - a little white ball, then if it hits it disappears and becomes a dome of energy scaled to be slightly bigger than the target creature's model's size, or if it misses it just disappears - except that I think that's kinda dumb, and would much rather visualize it in a way I find more intuitive and also prefer: a little white ball that behaves quite like a rocket from a rocket launcher.

As such, I'm hoping it acts more like a rocket, and am quite willing to modify the rules so that it does so.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Wrong. There is no need for that, because the caster chooses at which points in space the fireball explodes. It doesn't need to collide with anything.

Ah, good point. Just reread the 3.5 SRD. Well, my reasoning was that a fireball doesn't disappear if it misses its target area. In other words, if something invisible gets in the way or it hits the arrow slit, it won't go away, like what some are dictating the Force Orb would do.

If a roll-to-hit spell effect misses, let's plot out the remainder of its flight path to see what else it might hit.

This is a HUGE buff to magic spells and is totally logically inconsistent with not applying the same rules to other ranged attacks.

Inside of the quote that you quoted me on, stated is that normal ranged attacks are against AC not reflex. So, if any ranged attacks targets a reflex, then there is a chance of it continuing along it's path if dodged. Sounds pretty consistent to me. The only problem someone brought up was that shields add to reflex as well. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it, but in any case it's not a huge buff to allow certain spells or reflex-targeting range attacks to continue in a vector path. It's a buff, but not the kind of buff that means everyone will only roll classes with ranged abilities that target reflex.

Although in the end, I think I agree with you. From a gamist standpoint, only certain abilities are meant to do things if they miss a primary target. That's the how the game is balanced. Cleave should do nothing if the primary creature (as the text says) is missed. Achieving a little more realism probably is not worth the extra trouble. However, as far as the specifics for force orb, since you can attack an object, the AoE thing is still viable. There just needs to be a suitable AC for the primary target object. Hitting a square or an object in the square(like a rock or whatever,) should have an appropriate AC...or a low reflex score in this case?...and the effect shouldn't go off if the square or object is missed, perhaps simulating a deflection or just being way off on the toss.