First Elites of my Campaign

[Trit One-Ear]

Hey guys,

So this Thursday my players are going to finish tracking down a thief they've been stalking for a few sessions now. While I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to get the information out of him diplomatically, they have just fought their way through two large rooms of his gang-mates, killing or maiming most of them.

For this combat I had hoped to use two elites as the main threats. Lazarus, the quick-thief they've been tracking, and Rolph, his strong-arm fighter comrade. I based them off/stole monsters from the compendium to save myself some work and tweaked them. Then I threw in some interesting traps to give the thieves a little edge.

My main concern is that I have never really run a two-elite fight before, and want to make sure this one will be challenging enough for the players without being too hard and feeling like a climactic show-down (Lazarus is, after all, just a master thief, not a powerful necromancer). Here's what I have for their stats.


[FONT=&quot]Lazarus[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 7 Elite Skirmisher [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Medium natural humanoid
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]XP 600[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]HP [/FONT][FONT=&quot]162; Bloodied 81[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]AC [/FONT][FONT=&quot]21; Fortitude 19; Reflex 19; Will 19[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Speed [/FONT]7
[FONT=&quot]Saving Throws [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+2; Action Points 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Initiative[/FONT][FONT=&quot] +8[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Perception [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+14[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Traits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Combat Advantage[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deals 2d6 extra damage against any target granting combat advantage.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Standard Actions[/FONT]
mWounding Dagger[FONT=&quot] (weapon) • At-Will[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Attack: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+12 vs. AC (crit 19-20)[/FONT]
Hit: 1d6 + 6 damage (crit 1d6 +12) and ongoing 5 damage (save ends)

M [FONT=&quot] Dance of the Knife (weapon) • At-Will [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Attack: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+12 vs. AC (crit 19-20)[/FONT]
Hit: 1d6 + 6 damage (crit 1d6 +12). Lazarus shifts two squares after the attack and makes one more attack against the same target or a different one. Lazarus then shifts two squares.

Move Actions
Peerless Tumble * Recharge 5 6
Effect: Lazarus shifts 4 squares, ignoring difficult terrain. If Lazarus is marked, this ends any mark conditions on him.


[FONT=&quot]Skills [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Stealth: +8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Str [/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 (+2)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dex [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 (+3)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Wis [/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 (+3)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Con [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 (+3)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Int [/FONT][FONT=&quot]13 (+1)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cha [/FONT][FONT=&quot]18 (+4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Alignment Unaligned [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Languages Common, Thief's Cant[/FONT]


I'll post Rolph below for simplicity's sake.

Trit

 

[Trit One-Ear]

[FONT=&quot]Rolf the Butcher[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 6 Elite Brute [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Medium natural humanoid[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]XP 500[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]HP [/FONT][FONT=&quot]174; Bloodied 87[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]AC [/FONT][FONT=&quot]16; Fortitude 20; Reflex 15; Will 17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Speed [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Saving Throws [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+2; Action Points 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Initiative[/FONT][FONT=&quot] +3[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Perception [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+5[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Standard Actions[/FONT]
m[FONT=&quot]Hammer[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (weapon) • At-Will[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Attack: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+9 vs. AC[/FONT]
Hit: 2d12+13 damage and the target is dazed (save ends) and marked until the end of Rolf's next turn.

m[FONT=&quot]Cleaver[/FONT][FONT=&quot](weapon) • At-Will[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Attack: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+9 vs. AC[/FONT]
Hit: 2d12 +8 damage, and ongoing 5 (save ends) and the target is marked until the end of Rolf's next turn.

M [FONT=&quot]Pound and Slice[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (weapon) • At-Will [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Effect: [/FONT]Rolf makes a hammer and a cleaver attack


[FONT=&quot]Triggered [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Actions[/FONT]
Menacing Pursuit[FONT=&quot] (Weapon) • At Will[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Trigger[/FONT]: When an adjacent enemy marked by Rolf would move or shift.
[FONT=&quot]Effect:[/FONT] (Immediate Interrupt) Rolf shifts 1 square and makes a melee basic attack.

Shake it Off[FONT=&quot] • At Will[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Trigger[/FONT]: When Rolf starts his turn with an effect or condition
[FONT=&quot]Effect:[/FONT] (Immediate Reaction) Rolf ignore that effect or condition for this turn, but takes 1d6 damage.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Skills [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Athletics +13, Intimidate +9[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Str [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 (+5)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dex [/FONT][FONT=&quot]10(+0)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Wis [/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 (+2)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Con [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 (+4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Int [/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 (+0)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cha [/FONT][FONT=&quot]12 (+1)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Alignment [/FONT][FONT=&quot]evil Languages Common, Draconic[/FONT]



Throwing in a few arrow traps and blade traps from the ceiling that the thieves know about to make the players decide; stay in close to Rolf and Lazarus, or risk the traps.

Thoughts?

Trit

 

[Quickleaf]

First of all, these guys need to work better as a team. Since Lazarus relies on CA to deal his striker damage then you need to provide some synergies besides flanking so that he can gain CA most rounds if he tries. For example: "Lazarus gains combat advantage against enemies taking ongoing damage." This way he takes advantage of Rolf's cleaver attack.

Second, Rolf's damage is unusually high. A 6th level brute should be doing around 18 damage on average with at-will attacks. You've got Rolf dealing 26 damage with an at-will.

Third, elites are often better when bloodied; not necessary but something to consider.

Fourth, typically if you've got an encounter with traps you want the monsters to have forced movement powers to knock PCs into them. Blade and arrow traps might be different...how are they triggered?

 

[the Jester]

Rolf's defenses are a touch too low and his damage, as Quickleaf notes, is too high.

Also, thematically, marking and interrupting movement and stuff is more appropriate to a soldier; that doesn't mean you need to change anything, just something to think about. (Personally, I'd prolly make him a soldier.)

Also, Shake it Off can't work as an immediate action- you can't take 'em on your turn- so you should make it either a free action or no action.

Lazarus seems kind of boring; maybe give him an encounter power like:

Dirty Trick - Encounter
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); +10 vs. Reflex.
Hit: 2d6+6 damage (crit 1d6+18) and the target is blinded (save ends).

You could sass it up by making it "only when bloodied" or an immediate reaction to being bloodied, too, depending on how you want it to work.

Oh- also, figuring that Lazarus will probably be able to get sneak attack most rounds until his buddy drops, you might consider changing his bonus SA damage to +1d8 (+2d8 when bloodied).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

These guys are kind of odd.

Lazarus has a Stealth score of +11, and that's actually a bit low since his Dex is low. (A PC rogue of the same level would probably have a Dex of 19, or even 21, since so many players "have" to give their starting rogue PCs a Dex of 20.)

Lazarus' dance of the knife is really cool. Having said that he is missing a recharge/encounter power. I'd pick a rogue power and approximate it. I'm thinking Deep Cut.

Rolf isn't a brute the way he's designed, but a soldier. After all, he can mark opponents, and punish them for moving away from him.

Rolf's damage is too high. Pound and Slice should be a recharge when first bloodied power, or perhaps recharge 5 or 6, with a trigger that causes it to automatically recharge when he is first bloodied.

His Hammer attack should target Fortitude. You do not want every attack power targeting AC. That leads to invincible PCs.

 

[Mengu]

Dance of the knife is a bit unclear. When you say "makes one more attack", can he use wounding dagger for that attack? I'm sure you know what you mean, but I don't. Perhaps you mean "he makes the attack one more time".

Also, Lazarus's damage is too low. Around 15 is the expected damage for level 7, skirmishers will be expected to do more based on a condition. 1d6+6 is 9.5 average, 3d6+6 is 16.5 average. I'd change base damage to 2d6+6 (and 4d6+6 with CA).

These guys are pretty easy to shut down. Blind the rogue, daze the brute, and win. I don't know what level your party is, and how many PC's you have, but without any interference, the fight may be a bit too easy if they have even a little bit of control.

As mentioned Lazarus needs a more consistent way to gain CA. I'd give him CA whenever he attacks a target adjacent to no creatures other than himself. Also let him team up better with Rolf, gaining CA against any creature adjacent to him.

In a two elite fight, you almost have to treat them like a solo, and give them some anti-control tools. I'd give Lazarus something like Expert Dungeoneering, minor action, blindsight until end of next turn. I'd give Lazarus a save at the beginning of his turn against daze and stun (whether a save can end the effect or not). His Shake it off doesn't work against daze and stun since it's a reaction.

Damage bonuses also largely dependent on the level of your party composition and optimization. If you have multiple leaders, and/or lots of healing, you can keep damage a bit higher. If you have a lot of alpha strikers that can shank down Rolf in round one, only thing Lazarus will be able to do is maybe run away. So have a back up plan, or have Lazarus start with a buffer of temporary hit points. If you have a low damage, low control, or low healing party, you really need to be wary of damage output on elites because things can go sour very quickly when they spend action points and focus fire. Also extra care needs to be taken for designing the encounter against 6 PC's or 4 PC's.

 

[Quickleaf]

All good advice, heed them

For your setting you've got a bit of a choice to make: Brutes/soldiers like twisty dense terrain with choke points, whereas skirmishers like obscured blocking terrain with many paths. I think using traps which augment the terrain would be interesting... For example, a "smoke ballista bolt" which leaves a lingering trail of lingering smoke, deals lotsa damage on a hit but has a low attack roll, and on a miss topples a wall creating dense/blocking terrain.

Another trap that would complent your guys well is a pair of land mine type bombs which make a sound when stepped on but don't detonate until stepped off of. When 2 PCs step on them, they need to hold actions to the same initiative count to run off otherwise whoever runs first escape but both bombs trigger (and the PC who didn't run off in time goes boom). It's a good complement because it limits PC motion, allowing the duo to move into flanking position more easily and slowing the melee assault against them.

 

[Trit One-Ear]

So glad there is the abundance of advice here, thank you all, guys!

Just to quickly address some points before going to bed (and reading these tips more closely tomorrow).

I thought Rolf's damage felt... very very high. I tried to update him using [MENTION=40398]Tequila Sunrise[/MENTION]'s New Monster Math Explained post from a while back (Found here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...7158-new-monster-math-explained-expanded.html ) I may have misread or misinterpreted it in my quick conversions however.

Second: I agree that these two are designed strangely. Both are straight copied from the compendium, with a few added abilities (Shake it off and the un-marking part of Laz's tumble). I feel a little more synergy will definitely make this fight more fun.

Third: I will admit to not having given this fight a lot of thought. I think I will take some time to redesign it with a bit more synergy, better statted monsters, and hopefully more exciting mechanics. Just was reminded that I won't be playing with my group this thursday because it is my girlfriends (luckily one of my players) and my anniversary... that was a fun conversation

Thanks again for the help guys. Keep an eye out for the redesigned fight soon.

Trit

 

[Trit One-Ear]

Alright, after some careful tinkering and actually thinking about this fight here are my two new stat blocks for Lazarus and Rolf. Please, further critiques are well appreciated!

I've decided to keep the terrain mostly the same, using the fact that it's an old abandoned temple of sorts to change it on the fly if need be (crumbling walls, falling pillars, loose floor tiles etc). Anyway, on to the stats!


[FONT=&quot]Lazarus[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 7 Elite Skirmisher [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Medium natural humanoid
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]XP 600[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]HP [/FONT][FONT=&quot]152; Bloodied 76[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]AC [/FONT][FONT=&quot]21; Fortitude 18; Reflex 21; Will 18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Speed [/FONT]7
[FONT=&quot]Saving Throws [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+2; Action Points 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Initiative[/FONT][FONT=&quot] +10[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Perception [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+15[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Traits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Combat Advantage[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deals 1d8 extra damage (2d8 while bloodied) against any target granting combat advantage.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sly Stalker[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Lazarus has combat advantage against any target that has no other creatures adjacent to it.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Slippery Will[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Whenever Lazarus starts his turn Dazed, Dominated or Stunned, he may make a saving throw both at the start and at the end of his turn.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Standard Actions[/FONT]
mWounding Dagger[FONT=&quot] (weapon) • At-Will[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Attack: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+12 vs. AC (crit 19-20)[/FONT]
Hit: 2d8 + 8 damage (crit 2d8 +16) and ongoing 5 damage (save ends)

M [FONT=&quot] Dance of the Knife (weapon) • At-Will [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Attack: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+12 vs. AC (crit 19-20)[/FONT]
Hit: 2d8 + 8 damage (crit 2d8 +16). Lazarus shifts two squares after the attack and makes the same attack against the same target or a different one. Lazarus then shifts two squares.

M [FONT=&quot]Binding Scarves • Recharge (when first bloodied) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Attack: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+10 vs. Ref (crit 19-20)[/FONT]
Hit: 2d6 + 6 damage (crit 1d6 +12) and the target is blinded (save ends).
Miss: Target is Restrained till the end of Lazarus's next turn.

Move Actions
Peerless Tumble * Recharge 5 6
Effect: Lazarus shifts 4 squares, ignoring difficult terrain. If Lazarus is marked, this ends any mark conditions on him.


[FONT=&quot]Skills [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Stealth: +8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Str [/FONT][FONT=&quot]12 (+3)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dex [/FONT][FONT=&quot]22 (+9)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Wis [/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 (+7)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Con [/FONT][FONT=&quot]14 (+5)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Int [/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 (+5)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cha [/FONT][FONT=&quot]21 (+8)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Alignment Unaligned [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Languages Common, Thief's Cant[/FONT]


My real concern is Binding Scarves and Slippery Will. Also his stats feel a little high, but that's less important I feel.

Thoughts?

Trit

 

[Trit One-Ear]

[FONT=&quot]Rolf the Butcher[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 6 Elite Brute [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Medium natural humanoid[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]XP 500[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]HP [/FONT][FONT=&quot]176; Bloodied 88[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]AC [/FONT][FONT=&quot]19; Fortitude 21; Reflex 18; Will 16[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Speed [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Saving Throws [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+2; Action Points 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Initiative[/FONT][FONT=&quot] +7[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Perception [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+6[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Traits[/FONT]
Tough as Nails
If Rolf starts his turn under a condition or effect he wishes to ignore, he may take 1d6 damage to make a saving throw. If that saving throw is successful he may ignore that effect for one turn.


[FONT=&quot]Standard Actions[/FONT]
m[FONT=&quot]Hammer[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (weapon) • At-Will[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Attack: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+9 vs. Fort[/FONT]
Hit: 2d8 +10 damage and the target is dazed (save ends).

m[FONT=&quot]Cleaver[/FONT][FONT=&quot](weapon) • At-Will[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Attack: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+11 vs. AC[/FONT]
Hit: 2d8 +10 damage, and ongoing 5 (save ends).

M [FONT=&quot]Pound and Slice[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (weapon) • Recharge 5, 6 (or when first Bloodied),[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Effect: [/FONT]Rolf makes a hammer and a cleaver attack


[FONT=&quot]Triggered [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Actions[/FONT]
Smell of Blood[FONT=&quot] (Weapon) • At Will[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Trigger[/FONT]: When an adjacent enemy taking ongoing damage would shift or move.
[FONT=&quot]Effect:[/FONT] (Immediate Interrupt) Rolf shifts 1 square and makes a melee basic attack. If this attack hits, Rolf may choose to slide the target 1 square, and apply no other effects (other than damage) from that attack.



[FONT=&quot]Skills [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Athletics +13, Intimidate +9[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Str [/FONT][FONT=&quot]22 (+9)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dex [/FONT][FONT=&quot]15(+5)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Wis [/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 (+6)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Con [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 (+8)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Int [/FONT][FONT=&quot]12 (+4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cha [/FONT][FONT=&quot]8 (+2)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Alignment Unaligned [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Languages Common,


Oh, just realized I left some skills off both their stat block here. Oh well

Trit
[/FONT]