D&D 5E First-hand experience with the DMG rules for creating/modifying monsters and NPCs

[Li Shenron]

I don't have the DMG yet but I know that it has rules for creating or modifying both monsters and NPCs. Who has already tried out these rules, and how did they work?

Most importantly, did you find these rules to reasonably estimate the CR and level of the resulting monsters/NPCs?

Please specify which one of these have you tried out:

- create a monster from scratch
- modify an existing monster
- create an NPC from scratch

I guess that for the latter there are multiple options e.g. using class levels or not.

 

[Evenglare]

To me the monster creation system is as needlessly complicated as it was in 3e. I really was hoping for 4e style simplicity for monsters. Instead here you have to figure out their attack, defense, HP etc. Then locate them on a table and then average them to get a CR... actually on second thought I'll concede that its a bit simpler than 3.x but not nearly as much as I would have liked. I don't understand why they keep going with CR stuff. Any person with even a simplistic mathematical background knows that you simply can't "balance" something like this with this many variables. You just simply cant.

In essence you are taking the whole gamut of Saves, HP, Attacks, speed, race, abilities, etc etc and condensing all of those ranges in ONE number. The CR. I don't know what their fascination is with doing it that way. If It were me I'd try to build monsters in relation to tiers and make the DM be mindful of what they are throwing at the party. Essentially it may be CR like, but it's over a span of levels rather than a singular level.

 

[Li Shenron]

[MENTION=63245]Evenglare[/MENTION] have you tried to create a monster/NPC or modify an existing monster using the DMG rules, and then used it in an adventure already? How did the monster/NPC worked out?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I've created horribly broken monsters using DMG rules as a proof-of-concept for how strong you can make a CR 1/4 monster; I've used the DMG quick-create rules as a guideline for XP adjustments when I changed a monster's stats (double HP and size); I've totally ignored the DMG guidelines for NPCs in favor of a simple CR = level heuristic; and of course I've used MM monsters that were created using DMG guidelines. Occasionally I'll reference the DMG rules when modifying a monster just to make sure it doesn't change XP totals, e.g. adding Blindsight is free but if I give something avoidance I should lower AC by 1 to compensate (because that's easier than recalculating CR).

Therefore, I agree with Evenglare. CR is a hopelessly simplistic metric, useful only for calculating kill XP, but not something you should ever use to estimate difficulty in any real sense. The variance of deadliness within a CR range is gigantic, and the potential variance in deadliness of a given creature type over a range of tactical behaviors and terrains is almost as huge. (I.e. how smart do you play these orcs? Are they led by an experienced warchief who exploits his warriors' darkvision by attacking at night and smashing lanterns, or are they just a mindless horde? Do these bad guys know enough about the PCs personally to specifically counter their abilities, or are they just using generic "kill the humans" tactics? Do the monsters automatically know who the wizard is in the party?) Just eyeball it and you'll get better predictions than the CR tables give you. Use CR only for determining kill XP.

 

[CapnZapp]

Just forget everything about EL CR etc and instead study the values: hp, AC, special attacks etc.

Then compare to your party.

 

[Shiroiken]

The guidelines in the DMG work... sort of.

Best thing to do is just stat out the monster from scratch, then figure out what its CR is. If that's outside your range, just tweak a few things to get it where you want it. I've done this many times, and it's worked out quite well.

Remember, the guidelines are just that... guidelines. Just like encounter building, they can very easily be used to create horribly unbalanced things (in either direction). When in doubt, use common sense. If you keep that in mind, you shouldn't have any problems.

 

[Raunalyn]

I will echo what Shiroiken said...it's easiest to find the range of hitpoints/attack rolls/defenses that you want your monster to have, then adjust until you find a reasonable CR.

I have on many occasions since 5e went live gone back to some of the 1e/2e/3e monsters so that I can convert them to 5e (Draconians and Xeg-yi, for example). The following was my mindset whenever I created them;

Look at monsters in the MM with a CR similar to what you think your monster will have. For example, I looked at Orcs and used them as a baseline for creating my Baaz Draconian. I took the Orc's hit points, AC, attack bonus and damage output and used those to create a quick and dirty baseline for the Baaz. Then, I just tweaked as needed, then compared it to the chart in the DMG to see if I was in the ball-park.

The chart in the DMG is not intuitive, but it can help you to determine if your new monster is too powerful for the CR you are aiming for.

 

[Steven Winter]

Over the last year, I've deconstructed the MM down to its foundations and completely statted or evaluated CRs for over 400 monsters converted from d20 and S&W. The DMG section on creating monsters is 6.5 pages of text plus 2.5 pages of tables, so it's not simple or concise -- except by comparison with 3.5, which was a nightmare in this regard, IMO. The DMG guidelines are reasonably good, as such things go, but they're no replacement for playtesting and an experienced DM. In my experience, the system tends to overrate monsters at the higher CRs and underrate them at the lower CRs. That is, if the DMG system tells you your monster is CR 15, it's probably closer to 10, and if it tells you the CR is 2, it's probably closer to 3 or 4. But as others have pointed out, there are simply too many variables afoot -- inside the stats, in the DM's head, and on the PCs' character sheets -- for any one number to have much meaning.

Steve

 

[Evenglare]

[MENTION=63245]Evenglare[/MENTION] have you tried to create a monster/NPC or modify an existing monster using the DMG rules, and then used it in an adventure already? How did the monster/NPC worked out?

Oh I do that all the time. I tend to use a lot of elemental monsters and for longevity I simply add or subtract HP. That's about all I do to monsters, and I certainly don't rely on the modified monsters CR. I don't even calculate a new CR (if there even is one), I just put it out there and see what happens. I know fairly well what my party can dish out so I just use that knowledge. Its works out for me fairly well

 

[aramis erak]

I don't have the DMG yet but I know that it has rules for creating or modifying both monsters and NPCs. Who has already tried out these rules, and how did they work?

Most importantly, did you find these rules to reasonably estimate the CR and level of the resulting monsters/NPCs?

Please specify which one of these have you tried out:

- create a monster from scratch
- modify an existing monster
- create an NPC from scratch

I guess that for the latter there are multiple options e.g. using class levels or not.

Done all three multiple times.

Mind you, only for Tier 1 level opponents (CR ≤5)... And it generates the CR's listed in the MM, as well, generally. Those work well at low levels with no magic.

My half-medusae were a hit with my players...