First Impressions from the D&D 4E "Test Drive"

[knifie_sp00nie]

No one's mentioned the wizard spell concern yet, so I'll tackle it. In 4e the idea is that most of your wizard powers are "adventuring spells" and mostly combat focused. In the full game, there are also a new class of spells called rituals.

Rituals are where most of the wizard and cleric utility magic went. They are designed to be cast out-of-combat from your book or a scroll. They often take more time (minutes) and require a small expenditure of components (money). The upside is that there aren't limits on how many rituals you can cast in a day and they don't reduce your ability to survive a fight.

 

[Voadam]

No one's mentioned the wizard spell concern yet,

so I'll tackle it. In 4e the idea is that most of your wizard powers are "adventuring spells" and mostly combat focused. In the full game, there are also a new class of spells called rituals.

Rituals are where most of the wizard and cleric utility magic went. They are designed to be cast out-of-combat from your book or a scroll. They often take more time (minutes) and require a small expenditure of components (money). The upside is that there aren't limits on how many rituals you can cast in a day and they don't reduce your ability to survive a fight.

Non attack spells have been either turned into utility powers, rituals, or eliminated. You don't get that many utility powers, anybody can take a feat to cast rituals but wizards do so as a class feature and get some rituals for free at various levels. Rituals take at least 5 minutes to cast and cost gp to learn and scribe into a ritual book and to cast them each time.

 

[keterys]

Also, if I recall correctly, the cantrips are partially cut off from the example wizard. Mage Hand and Prestidigitation are still quite a lot of fun, and at-will For example, last session I created a flame so that another party member could show off how tough he was by putting his hand into it.

We also use a number of rituals and a couple of notable utilities in that game. Some games won't use any of that, though, so mileage varies.

 

[knifie_sp00nie]

I saw that after posting. Looks like a time zone thing and a simul-post. Either that or I just spaced out.

 

[N0Man]

Hit points isn't just a representation about how many wounds you can take, and technically they weren't in earlier editions either (though sometimes this aspect was glossed over or forgotten by players).

Therefor, if Hit Point loss is not just about how many wounds you can sustain, then hit point gain is not necessarily wounds being removed.

I think I heard it said best that "Hit points are plot protection." They represent your ability to "keep on keeping on." It can represent wounds, luck, morale, endurance, your will to continue, and ability to maintain consciousness. These can grow and diminish.

Really, Healing Surges most of all determine how long you can stay up over the long run (the entire day). Hit Points determine are how long you can stay up in a limited time (an encounter).

As others have said, flavor them how you want or let the power source guide you.

I see the Second Wind power as being quite literally it's namesake. It's that little extra energy one finds from within to push themselves more. It's like the athlete who manages to keep going when you think he's out. It's the movie action hero who when appearing to be defeated, finds a reserve within himself to continue and defeats the bad guy just as he was gloating about his victory over the hero.

For a Warlord, I see it like an officer who gives rousing speeches, reminds the soldiers of their duty, inspires them, and doesn't give up on them. "Shake it off, rub some dirt in it!"

Whatever works for you for a power. It's not really that hard to describe recovering hit points as long as you don't get hung up on thinking hit points should just be wounds.

I see that 5 minute rest after an encounter as not just sitting down and having a smoke and catching their breath, but as wrapping their wounds, setting that dislocated shoulder back in place, etc.

I don't see full Hit Points and Full surges as being wound free, just being fully ready to fight.

 

[Shades of Green]

Generally speaking, I like the 4E rules as presented in the Quick Start document. They seem vey easy to learn and use and much simpler than the 3E ones.

I think that now, that I've thought about it, I can easily accept Healing Surges in the context of the D&D game. I simply think of 24 and of how Jack Bauer can get back to his feet after being beaten up, shot at, stabbed or even severely tortured, and then get back to fighting terrorists as if nothing has happened. He simply "Uses a Healing Surge" to get back on his feet despite being bruised or wounded. It's heroic, and as long as I describe loss of HP as near misses, bruises and small cuts rather than real wounds, I can describe a Healing Surge as "sucking it up" and getting back on one's feet despite the pain and the fatigue. Only the blow that reduces your HP below zero is a possible serious wound, which was made possible by your fatigue and inability to defend yourself properly. And even then, it might just have been a Flesh Wound (when you spend a Healing Surge to recover to positive HP).

In other words, the PCs are the Heroes, and almost everyone else on the board - villains excluded (do villains get healing surges too?) - are mooks. Especially minions. I like that.

Combat realism is like a gouge. On one hand of the scale is highly realistic combat, as is the Striker supplement for Classic Traveller, where you can get killed by a single pistol shot. A little less realistic, but slightly more heroic, are Shadowrun and Mongoose Traveller, where a single pistol shot rarely kills you outright but does hurt a lot and probably requires medical attention (as in Firefly). And the least realistic, but most heroic, is D&D with its huge amount of HP and with Healing Surges, where you rarely get killed even by a greataxe blow and can get back to your feet after being hit several times. Each genre has its own assumptions, and D&D seems to fit heroic fantasy very well.

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Regarding miniatures, I have no problem with them; in fact, I like collecting and buying 15mm miniatures (which are easier to store in my small apartment than 28mm ones). Most of my collection is sci-fi, but I intend to buy some fantasy stuff once I'll have funds available. My only problem, then, would be the prep time required to draw a gridded map for each encounter...

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I think I'm coming to like the increased amount of HP at level 1; after all, my last D&D-type campaign, using BFRPG, started at level 3 and was a blast. And yes, increased durability meant that a single PC Magic-User and an additional NPC cleric were able to handle their own against various goblins, undead, Skum, and later on even an Aboleth! And that was in BFRPG, which is essentially a hybrid of BECMI and 3E.

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The main stumbling blocks for me to get into 4E are:

1) The need for 4-5 PCs per group (especially with the interactions between PC classes). As I've said, my last BFRPG game, lasting from level 3 to level 7, was a blast, and had only one PC magic-User and a companion Cleric against home-brewed encounters (I don't know if they would have fared well against a module). In 4E I'll probably need more PCs around to run the game properly...
2) The limits on wizards, even though Rituals probably mitigate this a bit. I simply love DMing a party with a wizard in earlier editions (or BFRPG), especially when the players are being creative... So many possibilities for a crafty player to use!
3) The limited scope of the main PHB. If I'd want Druids, for example, I'll have to buy yet another book. This makes the entry cost a bit high...
4) How easy is new material (such as new races and classes) to make for 4E? I love homebrewing, so I'd like to use a system that's easy to homebrew for (that's one of the things I love in Traveller).
5) The entry cost. That is 60$-100$ for the three core-books alone, about 30$ per additional PHB or DMG, and, if I follow the suggestions given above, around 70$ per year of subscription costs to DDI. And that's not including miniatures and/or a battlemat... It adds up, and is quite a point I'll have to consider, financially speaking.

 

[Rechan]

1) The need for 4-5 PCs per group (especially with the interactions between PC classes). As I've said, my last BFRPG game, lasting from level 3 to level 7, was a blast, and had only one PC magic-User and a companion Cleric against home-brewed encounters (I don't know if they would have fared well against a module). In 4E I'll probably need more PCs around to run the game properly...

Not true PER SE.

You can run a solo game in 4e. I ran a short campaign (2 adventures) with a warlock and a ranger (both are strikers, like the rogue).

You just have to retool it to fit. For instance, a game with just a Rogue (and a companion character) would likely be more intrigue, more "Breaking and Entering" and jumping someone from the shadows. Very much like the game Thief, or an Indiana Jones-style game. Meanwhile, a game with just a Wizard would/should look like a Western; everyone diving for cover, shooting from behind cover, the wizard battling other controller/artillery monsters. Possibly arcane duels, in addition to various research/investigations/exploration.

A game with 2 people means using 2 monsters of equal level, ONE elite monster of equal level, OR one monster of higher level (so if you have two 1st level PCs, then use a 3rd level monster). Sprinkle two minions here or there, and you have a good game.

You (as the DM) have to be aware that a PC going unconscious in a Solo/Duo game may mean that the PCs lose. Either a TPK or "you're captured".

A game with 1 or 2 PCs might mean more Exploration (like oldschool) rather than constant fighting. Just "Going and seeing what is out there" type stuff.

4) How easy is new material (such as new races and classes) to make for 4E? I love homebrewing, so I'd like to use a system that's easy to homebrew for (that's one of the things I love in Traveller).

Races, monsters, and powers are a snap to make. One of the great thigns about 4e is how easy it is to make monsters/NPCs. It's very "effect based"; "I want to make a fire monster. So I just make some effects that feel fire-y, check to make sure that's balanced, good to go".

Classes, on the other hand, much harder to make. There's not really guidelines on how to make them, balanced wise, etc.

5) The entry cost. That is 60$-100$ for the three core-books alone, about 30$ per additional PHB or DMG, and, if I follow the suggestions given above, around 70$ per year of subscription costs to DDI. And that's not including miniatures and/or a battlemat... It adds up, and is quite a point I'll have to consider, financially speaking.

Starting in September, they are going to be releasing a line of products called "D&D Essentials", starting with an actual Red Box. The products will be much cheaper (I think like $10?). If you are willing to wait...

Also, I bet you can find used 4e books cheap. A lot of folks who didn't like them likely want to get rid of them.

Not to mention that you, the DM, are well wtihin your right to say "Hey look, you want to play something that isn't in the PHB, YOU (the player) buy the book, and you can use it." This agreement means that you the DM have to look at the info in there, so you understand it. But this would take some of the financial burden off of you.

 

[Destil]

Also, as was stated upthread, you can get a subscription to DDI for a month and get 5 installs of the character generator. That covers almost everything you'd need to make and run most classes, small bits like the familiar rules aren't entirely intact, but for the most party you're good to go with it.

 

[Truename]

(do villains get healing surges too?)

Technically, yes. All monsters have one healing surge per tier. But they very rarely have a way to activate them. (I suppose they could use Second Wind, but monster healing in-combat isn't a good idea--it stretches out combat length without adding fun.) I use it to have them heal a bit if they run away and regroup, or if the PCs do.

5) The entry cost. That is 60$-100$ for the three core-books alone, about 30$ per additional PHB or DMG, and, if I follow the suggestions given above, around 70$ per year of subscription costs to DDI. And that's not including miniatures and/or a battlemat... It adds up, and is quite a point I'll have to consider, financially speaking.

If you buy a month's subscription to DDI, you can download the Character Builder and Monster Builder, which gives you nearly all the crunch WoTC has yet published, for less the price of one book. It's a steal.

 

[Shades of Green]

Thanks for the great input and insightful advice. You've all brought me very close to trying out 4E once I'll have available funds for the books, a month's subscription to DDI, a battlemat and some minis. You've even convinced me that 4E wizards would be OK and enjoyable to both play and DM

I'm only worried about the small group issue; would, say, 2-3 PCs be enough if I use my own tailored encounters?