First Impressions from the D&D 4E "Test Drive"

[JohnSnow]

Thanks for the great input and insightful advice. You've all brought me very close to trying out 4E once I'll have available funds for the books, a month's subscription to DDI, a battlemat and some minis. You've even convinced me that 4E wizards would be OK and enjoyable to both play and DM

I'm only worried about the small group issue; would, say, 2-3 PCs be enough if I use my own tailored encounters?

Welcome aboard Shades!

I wouldn't worry about the size of your group so much as which roles they have covered. With only 3 PCs, you won't have all the roles covered. What they leave out will make a great impact on what sorts of encounters they can handle. And the more roles that are missing, the rougher their road will be. That said, a smart group can make up for their weaknesses with smart strategy. For instance, a group that lacks a defender would have a tough time in a toe-to-toe combat, but could mitigate that with ambushes and hit-and-run strategies. Healing surges even allow a group to function without a leader, although it's trickier.

I'd say that as long as you scale encounters appropriately, they should manage fine.

 

[Gort]

For the love of god, leave out the controller. They're far and away the weakest role.

 

[S'mon]

For the love of god, leave out the controller. They're far and away the weakest role.

The Invoker IMC is pretty devastating, but I agree that with a 2-PC group you can do without a Controller. Defender + tough Striker worked well for me. Defender + Leader should also work although Leaders are a bit weaker in smaller groups.

 

[Rechan]

In a three man crew, having a controller isn't too bad. It would make things more dangerous (but probably exciting) if you have no defender, but three of the other roles. No striker, and combats will go slower. No leader, and someone will die.

I imagine that the more lethal nature might be of interest to someone used to 1e.

 

[TerraDave]

Observations

Without yet reading the rest of the thread, you have basically hit the various nails on the head.

There are some ways of dealing whith the issues you site, but your first impressions are just about right.

 

[Voadam]

Thanks for the great input and insightful advice. You've all brought me very close to trying out 4E once I'll have available funds for the books, a month's subscription to DDI, a battlemat and some minis. You've even convinced me that 4E wizards would be OK and enjoyable to both play and DM

I'm only worried about the small group issue; would, say, 2-3 PCs be enough if I use my own tailored encounters?

If you can still find them there was a holiday special Player's Handbook bundle this Christmas which sold PH I & II plus a DDI subscription coupon all for the price of the PH I.

PH II gives you AD&D classes like Barbarian and Druid which were not in PHI as well as the gnome PC race. The rest is a mix of 3e classes and races (sorcerer, shifter, goliath) and new ones (such as shaman and deva which are sort of like aasimar but with wings and reincarnation stuff).

Also prices fluctuate but at one point some of the deluxe core books with the silver covers which incorporates some errata were on sale through amazon at prices comparable to getting the core books on their own.

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

Regarding miniatures, you don't need them. I sold all of mine, though I will confess to being a Dungeon Tiles addict.

For Keep on the Shadowfell, for example, I use Fiery Dragon's free Castle of Shadows Counter Collection. They have numerous other counter collections that are far cheaper than minis.

 

[MrMyth]

1) The need for 4-5 PCs per group (especially with the interactions between PC classes). As I've said, my last BFRPG game, lasting from level 3 to level 7, was a blast, and had only one PC magic-User and a companion Cleric against home-brewed encounters (I don't know if they would have fared well against a module). In 4E I'll probably need more PCs around to run the game properly...

As others have mentioned, 4E actually scales to a lower number of PCs reasonably well. The xp budget rules remain pretty easy to use, and you actually have decent options for what to present the PCs with - one or two average monsters like normal, or several enemies in the form of minions or lower-level enemies, or one scary big bad guy with an Elite.

2) The limits on wizards, even though Rituals probably mitigate this a bit. I simply love DMing a party with a wizard in earlier editions (or BFRPG), especially when the players are being creative... So many possibilities for a crafty player to use!

There definitely are limitations in place. Still, Rituals plus Utility powers plus Cantrips (Mage Hand, Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation At-Will), plus clever use of skills and random gimmicky magic items, can leave plenty of options open for crafty players!

3) The limited scope of the main PHB. If I'd want Druids, for example, I'll have to buy yet another book. This makes the entry cost a bit high...

Yeah, it basically traded out some older options for newer ones. Still, one month of DDI gets you pretty much everything you could need - and WotC does offer occasional deals, like the bundle that included both PHB1 and PHB2. That can cut down on costs quite a bit.

4) How easy is new material (such as new races and classes) to make for 4E? I love homebrewing, so I'd like to use a system that's easy to homebrew for (that's one of the things I love in Traveller).

Remarkably easy, actually, since the formulas for system design are often pretty open and easy to balance against. Races are an absolute snap to create, and same with Paragon Paths and magic items. Monsters are easy to design for as well. Classes are a bit more challenging, mainly because of how much goes into them - both the base class features and 30 levels of powers. On the other hand, adding new builds for an existing class isn't too hard, so that can be an easy approach to customizing things for your personal setting.

5) The entry cost. That is 60$-100$ for the three core-books alone, about 30$ per additional PHB or DMG, and, if I follow the suggestions given above, around 70$ per year of subscription costs to DDI. And that's not including miniatures and/or a battlemat... It adds up, and is quite a point I'll have to consider, financially speaking.

Like I said above, bundles, and DDI, are your friend. One month of subscription makes an excellent starting point - if nothing else, it can tell you what products you actually are interested in, and you can focus on the material there. Maybe get the group to split the costs on a battlemap, use tokens or the like instead of minis, and the investment shouldn't be all that bad.

 

[MrMyth]

Actually I think that is a matter of taste. I have seen both in action and I would as a wizard player prefer Wizard Fury. The ability to make a attack as a minor action for an entire encounter is fantastic.

Flaming Sphere has the advantage of inflicting similar damage on multiple enemies for the entire encounter without needing to roll attacks - hence why it is so awesome. And providing a high-damage At-Will attack for the encounter as well, essentially.

On the other hand, it isn't friendly fire which can make it harder to use, and can be limited by board positioning while Wizard's Fury let's you blast Magic Missiles wherever you want (and take advantage of various buffs for Ranged Basic Attacks.)

Even as cool as those are, the PHB1 dailies can remain competitive - Freezing Cloud is really good nova damage on an area, and Sleep is potentially a powerhouse in terms of outright control. Acid Arrow... isn't great, and will have trouble comparing to the raw damage output of Flaming Sphere. But some of the others from Arcane Power remain decent due to control effects.

Which I like - as good as Flaming Sphere is, if damage alone isn't what you are looking for, other options remain viable.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Flaming Sphere also has the advantage of being a clear control-the-battle-field option, which I think Wizard's Fury has not.

The sphere marks a place where your enemies don't want to be. They will try to get away. If they are good, they will try to make you stop using it somehow. This means you can control their movement and positioning by punishing them if they do stuff you don't want them to do. Whathever it is, you interfere with their plans.