D&D 5E First Session of HotDQ - WOW, what a meatgrinder

[Boarstorm]

You guys! Stop arguing like (Pirate)cats and (Thank) Dogs!

... ok, so you weren't really arguing. But... I couldn't let the pun go to waste. The terrible ones yearn to be free.

 

[Thank Dog]

You guys! Stop arguing like (Pirate)cats and (Thank) Dogs!

... ok, so you weren't really arguing. But... I couldn't let the pun go to waste. The terrible ones yearn to be free.

You only have to start really worrying when we move in together...

 

[Rhenny]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I have to add my experience to the mix.

I've played 3 sessions so far. It has been tough and we are still playing through the first night!!!

We have probably gone through 9 or 10 encounters already without a long rest.

We leveled up after about 4 encounters, so that kept us going a bit longer.

In the 3 games (about 8 hours of total play) each member of our 5 PC party has gone unconscious at one point or another. In our last battle at the mill, 2 of the 5 went down, and we really thought we were facing a TPK...but we pulled it out in the end. (Mind you, I don't even know if this is an encounter that is in the adventure. Our DM may be modifying or adding as he sees fit).

I love the gritty feel. We are getting into our characters and starting to really get a feel for the terror that the entire situation is sowing in Greenest.

That said, I will be really relieved when we actually make it through til dawn and we can finally take an extended rest.

 

[Thank Dog]

We leveled up after about 4 encounters, so that kept us going a bit longer.

It's even nastier in Adventurer's League because technically you can't level until you've had an extended rest. Although that's somewhat mitigated by the fact that you can level your character outside of the adventure and bring it back, which has happened a few times that I've seen.

In the 3 games (about 8 hours of total play) each member of our 5 PC party has gone unconscious at one point or another. In our last battle at the mill, 2 of the 5 went down, and we really thought we were facing a TPK...but we pulled it out in the end. (Mind you, I don't even know if this is an encounter that is in the adventure. Our DM may be modifying or adding as he sees fit).

It was in the module. It's a trap. They weren't actually trying to set fire to anything.

 

[Desalus]

Here you're assuming, again, that it isn't a good experience for a new player. As I have pointed out from anecdotal evidence, it seems that the experience is just fine for them. How many new players have you asked about their experiences playing through HotDQ?

We've had a number of people who have come to Encounters a few times and didn't return. I'm not sure what their reasons were (because they weren't around to ask anymore), but I can guarantee that not everyone is enjoying the meat-grind of Greenest. Who really enjoys being denied playtime and any XP for the adventure because their character died to an unbalanced encounter, especially if it is their first time playing? In the case of a spellcasting characters, who enjoys running out of spells in the second encounter with 6+ more encounters to go and no rest in sight? Can you truly say that this a good experience for new players? Sure you will have the players that enjoy the challenge, but there will be plenty that find the game too unfair and highly boring (if they have to wait 3+ more sessions to cast again).

 

[Thank Dog]

Who really enjoys being denied playtime and any XP for the adventure because their character died to an unbalanced encounter, especially if it is their first time playing?

So far I've played in it & DM'd parts of it for AL, played in it and DM'd it for home/Roll20 groups and not one PC has died in any of those games. Admittedly, the DM running the AL game was very lenient, but when I DM'd it I certainly wasn't.

In the case of a spellcasting characters, who enjoys running out of spells in the second encounter with 6+ more encounters to go and no rest in sight?

That's why spellcasters have cantrips. They should be saving their levelled spells for when they're truly needed. That is the art and skill of playing a spellcaster. D&D has always been a game of resource management. As the DM, I think it's important to drop clues and hints that the PC's will be in it for the long haul, and even then, a good spellcaster player won't blow their load at the first opportunity. If they do, then that's their fault, not the fault of the module.

Sure you will have the players that enjoy the challenge, but there will be plenty that find the game too unfair and highly boring (if they have to wait 3+ more sessions to cast again).

If they don't want a challenge then they can always go and play Pathfinder.

 

[Desalus]

So far I've played in it & DM'd parts of it for AL, played in it and DM'd it for home/Roll20 groups and not one PC has died in any of those games. Admittedly, the DM running the AL game was very lenient, but when I DM'd it I certainly wasn't.

I’m glad your experiences were so great. Take a look at this thread and other threads about ‘Greenest in Flames’ and you will find many had a different experience than you did.

You say that you weren’t lenient when running this adventure, so did you run the adventure exactly as it is written in the book? Did you ever let your players rest? If so, did they miss out or fail one of the missions? Did you place some convenient healers in the keep or give the characters healing potions before the half-dragon, neither of which were written about (to my knowledge)? When your players snuck out of the keep using the old tunnel did you make sure to roll to see if they were spotted each time? When they snuck around town did they roll for every 100 feet they traveled to see if they were spotted?

That's why spellcasters have cantrips. They should be saving their levelled spells for when they're truly needed. That is the art and skill of playing a spellcaster. D&D has always been a game of resource management. As the DM, I think it's important to drop clues and hints that the PC's will be in it for the long haul, and even then, a good spellcaster player won't blow their load at the first opportunity. If they do, then that's their fault, not the fault of the module.

You’re expecting new players to appreciate this concept and to have enough experience to know when a spell is truly needed? When I’m new to a game the first thing I want to do is to see what my character is capable of. New players probably shouldn’t be thrown into an adventure where they can easily make unwise choices and suffer for it throughout the next several sessions. There's better ways of easing them into understanding how to efficiently play their characters.

If they don't want a challenge then they can always go and play Pathfinder.

If Pathfinder had an adventure as unbalanced as ‘Greenest in Flames’ I highly doubt the outcome would be any better; in fact it would probably be even worse (I don't recall anyone saying level 1 Pathfinder is easy). Also telling players that ‘if you didn’t like it then go play something else’ is a poor defense for bad adventure design. I’m not criticizing the system (I really like the system), I’m criticizing the ‘Greenest in Flames’ adventure and WOTC’s choice to make this the very first introduction into the game for a lot of new players via Encounters. I find it a very poor representation of what DnD has to offer players.

 

[Halivar]

There's a reason why the most celebrated Old School modules are the most deadly and merciless. A module with no chance of failure is perhaps enjoyed for a moment, then forgotten. The deadly ones are memorable. It may be that in future years, chapter 1 of HotDQ is remembered quite fondly.

 

[drjones]

I am playing a character in HotDQ so I am not reading this thread to avoid spoilage past the first paragraph but our group of 4 characters made it through the first section as level 1 characters and I think we only had one guy gt knocked unconscious. The only near death was the plot driven one that introduced the villain guy and seemed unavoidable in retrospect.

We have played some of the starter set and I have DMd 5e so we have some system knowledge but I would not say the characters were super min/maxed. We just took our time, my rogue scouted ahead whenever possible so we attacked with surprise more often than not.

The DM did add a catapult we could try to fire at the dragon to minor effect, if he had not I don't think our PCs would have even tried to attack it.

 

[Thank Dog]

I’m glad your experiences were so great. Take a look at this thread and other threads about ‘Greenest in Flames’ and you will find many had a different experience than you did.

Yeah but the internet is full of examples where the most comments made are made by people with negative experiences. That is not necessarily representative of the whole. If you consider just how many people are playing through HotDQ, just through Adventurer's League alone, then the vast majority seem to not be coming online and complaining that it's too hard.

You say that you weren’t lenient when running this adventure, so did you run the adventure exactly as it is written in the book?

For Adventurer's League I did, yes. 100% by the book. Although, as I said, the other DM was lenient so the group was rested and levelled up for my session (I'm like an alternate, I play mostly but DM if it's needed and I'm not falling asleep on my feet, which is most of the time).

But for my other play and DM experiences, it was pretty stock standard. Having known the adventure as a player I also tried not to influence the decisions being made too much.

You’re expecting new players to appreciate this concept and to have enough experience to know when a spell is truly needed? When I’m new to a game the first thing I want to do is to see what my character is capable of. New players probably shouldn’t be thrown into an adventure where they can easily make unwise choices and suffer for it throughout the next several sessions. There's better ways of easing them into understanding how to efficiently play their characters.

Yeah, I gotta disagree here. Making choices is what RPG's are all about. Making good and bad choices are part and parcel of the play experience. Hell, even as a veteran player, I make mistakes with my PC's all the time. Giving the players an experience where they can't make bad decisions is like saying, "Don't worry, you can't fail, just do whatever silly nonsense you like as there won't be any consequences."

Yuck.

If Pathfinder had an adventure as unbalanced as ‘Greenest in Flames’ I highly doubt the outcome would be any better; in fact it would probably be even worse (I don't recall anyone saying level 1 Pathfinder is easy).

Eh, in my experience every Pathfinder game I've participated in has been a cake-walk. I tried DM'ing it and used "balanced" encounters and all the players complained that it was too easy and that I'd gotten the math wrong. I went back, checked, rechecked, and had other people look over it on forums, and it wasn't balanced at all. It was actually considered far too powerful for the PC's to defeat. They won in the first round of every combat.

Also telling players that ‘if you didn’t like it then go play something else’ is a poor defense for bad adventure design.

Yeah, that was rude of me, I apologise.

I find it a very poor representation of what DnD has to offer players.

Eh, I think it highly depends on the DM and how it's run. And also on the type of players. The only thing I'll agree on is that it is definitely a meat-grinder. But on the flip-side, I think these types of scenarios also foster smarter, more cautious, more creative play. Part of why I have such a hate-on for 3.x/Pathfinder is that I got so bored of the "let's just kick in every door and loot every store because we're practically unkillable" style of play that it promotes. The only time I've seen characters die in these systems is when they do something so monumentally stupid that they'd be deserving of a Darwin Award.