D&D 5E First Time 5E: Options?

[Werebat]

I'm also not concerned about them because in my experience any player that has agreed to the goals of play doesn't abuse things and limits themselves to builds and decisions that are fun for everyone and help create an exciting, memorable story as a result of play. So it's just a matter of establishing the goals and seeking buy-in before play.

I'm seeing a lot of this "session zero" stuff lately -- I'm a little curious where it came from.

Your statement above is typical, and seems to mean essentially that "X isn't overpowered, so long as the players agree not to abuse it."

It's interesting and all, but couldn't that argument be made for even the most comically abusable of rules? If every PC has an "I Win" button that they can use whenever they want in any combat (even if it isn't their turn), it's not a problem if they agree not to abuse it, right? Once you've agreed to that, you've effectively left the table where game balance is discussed.

 

[iserith]

I'm seeing a lot of this "session zero" stuff lately -- I'm a little curious where it came from.

I've been pushing it a lot over the last couple years as a solution to all the problems people report on RPG forums. It's basic page-setting so that everyone has the same expectations before play. Recently, I started a game and have been keeping transcripts, including my Session Zero. I posted a thread about it on WotC that got some traction. (I'm a fairly prolific poster there.) I can't claim that what you're hearing is a result of my efforts though.

Your statement above is typical, and seems to mean essentially that "X isn't overpowered, so long as the players agree not to abuse it."

It's interesting and all, but couldn't that argument be made for even the most comically abusable of rules? If every PC has an "I Win" button that they can use whenever they want in any combat (even if it isn't their turn), it's not a problem if they agree not to abuse it, right? Once you've agreed to that, you've effectively left the table where game balance is discussed.

In an RPG like D&D 5e, I'm not certain game balance is all that important for all the words spent on it. The goal of play is to have fun and tell good stories. The Basic Rules tell us this. Game balance doesn't help with that (unless players, for some reason, base their fun on things being balanced) and is only really important in board games so one player doesn't have an advantage over another. Mechanics that help manage spotlight, on the other hand, do help with that, to ensure that all the players have some say in how that story gets told. When players understand this, they're perfectly able to play games with wacky mechanics and classes that not balanced against each other, have fun, and tell great stories.

Now, if we were talking about D&D 4e (another game I love to play), I'd be singing a slightly different tune. In any case, take a look at the thread I linked for additional discussion about these feats with some math broken down and make your own decision about it.

 

[Werebat]

In an RPG like D&D 5e, I'm not certain game balance is all that important for all the words spent on it. The goal of play is to have fun and tell good stories. The Basic Rules tell us this. Game balance doesn't help with that (unless players, for some reason, base their fun on things being balanced) and is only really important in board games so one player doesn't have an advantage over another. Mechanics that help manage spotlight, on the other hand, do help with that, to ensure that all the players have some say in how that story gets told. When players understand this, they're perfectly able to play games with wacky mechanics and classes that not balanced against each other, have fun, and tell great stories.

And when someone at the table's idea of fun is having a character that can trump everyone else's? What do you do then?

Sure, you might be able to collectively shame them into going underground and keeping their dominance somewhat veiled, but...

What you describe sounds like a really nice idea that might have problems when it hits reality.

 

[iserith]

And when someone at the table's idea of fun is having a character that can trump everyone else's? What do you do then?

Sure, you might be able to collectively shame them into going underground and keeping their dominance somewhat veiled, but...

First you have a discussion prior to play about the goals of play and seek buy-in and agreement. Then you hold people to their agreements. If people can't hold to their agreements, you invite them to leave. No system is safe from someone who wants to act in bad faith. Send them packing and play with people who don't do that.

What you describe sounds like a really nice idea that might have problems when it hits reality.

My experience with thousands of hours of play with hundreds of players in pick-up groups (if my Roll20 stats are to be believed) is that we all share the same basic goals and that by putting them front and center and asking for buy-in before play, the kinds of problems you describe are exceedingly rare. This is the reality I have personally seen anyway.

 

[Psikerlord#]

No. Either the math is wrong or your players' impression is mistaken. You got to choose one.

Remember, the human mind is not very good at calculating probabilities. Our intuition often leads us to drawing flawed conclusions. Basically, it boils down to learning not to trust your "gut feeling".

I understand all that. Thing is, fun trumps maths, and the fun comes from your play experience, not what probabilities might tell you.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

A quick googling found this:
http://community.wizards.com/forum/dungeon-master-help/threads/4172796

The Too Long Didn't Read summary would be "GWF is fine. Don't let Crossbow Expert remove disadvantage shooting into melee, however"

(Of course, I don't know if this was the thread that iserith had seen.)

Thanks! The funny thing for me is that I'd run Crossbow Expert completely differently than that. I'd allow shooting into melee but not allow you to reload two hand crossbows at once.