D&D 4E first time dm creating 4e world, help pls?

[Xethreau]

I think that if you are strongly set on a cosmic-good-versus-evil/little-people-get-swooped-into-events-larger-than-themselves type game, then it needs to be handled very carefully, or else it won't go over so great.

The best way I can explain this so that I am pretty sure you will understand my meaning without fail is to use videogame references. I appologise in advance.

Soul Calibur Legends for the Wii has a story line that is absolutely horrendus. You start out as this more-or-less stock character who mysteriously wakes up with one of the two legendary swords in front of him. He takes up the blade, and at the end of the first level (30 min into play, at most), he finds out that he is the only one who can save the world from all these demons that are attacking it. Character Motivation: Sigfried does not want to "loose anything" ever again...

An example you might wish to follow instead is that of Final Fantasy VII. When you start out, you play as characters who already have a fairly well established history, some of whom know each other, some do not. The action kicks off right away, but the situation is believable, and just after, there is a quick return to "every day life." Slowly but surely, the characters cause events (NOTE: Very few events simply "happen" to characters. Think "character driven plot") that ripple out, eventually snowballing tot he point where the characters have to leave home, travel abroad, and eventually fight evil in high places.
Character Motivations: Living on a dead friend's life, revenge, and redemption are all aspects of various character's reasons for adventure, some more than others. Unlike most video games, what is important in D&D (in terms of storyline) is character development, and not nessessarily "plot" for plot's sake.

I am not saying that "You are a hero, here is your artifact" sort of plot does not have its place, but from personal experience with a similar type plot ("You are chosen heroes! Go on a mission!"), unless it is handled delicately, the players will likely feel very very constrained.

 

[Vayden]

(gathers up willpower, ignores lack of capitalization)

Just echoing what's mentioned above, there are two very important things to do when setting up a campaign if you want to give it a chance to be long-running instead of just a month or two of adventures.

First, as mentioned above multiple times, make sure the characters have a reason to stick together - one trick I've used in the past is, with four players, telling them that they need to come up with a relationship to at least 2 of the other PCs as part of character generation (siblings, members of the same organization, common enemy, shared interests/ideals - something).

Second, and I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet - talk with your group about what kind of campaign they'd want to play in. Maybe your group isn't into "save the world" type of adventures - maybe they want to carve out their own kingdom, or set up a world-renowned spy ring, or become infamous thieves. If your guys aren't going to have fun roaming around saving the world, you're better off saving that plot for your first fantasy novel and working with them to come up with a campaign you can all enjoy. (Of course, you don't have to give them any details of the whole Corellon/cube thing - just sketch out the whole - "wander around for a bit, discover that only you can save Mid-world!" idea and see if they want to do that).

 

[Andur]

My humble words of advice:

1) DnD is a joint effort. The players and the DM need to be having fun. If you invest too much to your storyline/arc then either you end up pissed the players are ignoring it, or they get pissed they are essentially being railroaded.

2) Your group levels too quickly. 3-5 encounters in a 4 hour session is insane. (note my opinion only) However 4e will be much easier to figure out then the EL system, you just figure out how much XP you want to PC's to get in any given encounter, and then throw XP*(# of PC) and away you go.

3) Lay down a good foundation (which for an overall world I think you have, I'm not crazy about the plot), then along with the players build an adventure/campaign. Have them in jail together is great (one of my favs), as long as they basically have to work together to have any decent chance of escaping. After the escape, is where it takes the "working together" part. Perhaps the PC's were "falsely accused" or brought in by a "bad sheriff" and need or want to clear their name(s). It shouldn't take too much to nudge them to work together just a little longer, little things like "Yeah, he's a dwarf, but he saved my life..." tend to go a long ways for a party to stick together even when there is no apparant immiediate goal.

4) Make notes, lots of them. Actions should have consequences, good and bad.

5) Start with a dungeon delve (escape through the sewers perhaps), the restrictive structure enables you to focus on the rules, adjucating, and getting to know/see the player's styles and party dynamic early. (This ties in with 3, just in a different way) As you get more comfortable in the DM role, you can open it up at the start, but really, going micro and opening to macro is easier than the other way around.

0) This one is last, because it is important: Look, sound, and act like you know what you are doing. Doesn't mean to not look up a rule if it is really important, but most the time "Sure, make a roll versus (appropriate check here)." goes a long ways, even if the results are "You are very confident that there is no (fill in whatever they were looking for, trying to do, etc that you had no idea what it was, they were trying to accomplish, or didn't feel like filling in here)

Remember games are suppose to be fun, for everyone.

 

[Flipguarder]

I'm confused then, there are a few weird DM concepts that are coming up that seem illogical.

1. Railroading seems to mean creating a storyline for characters. I've asked the players about their requests for a story, and our current campaign (with all the same players) and their opinion fits in with my story (I think*). Outside of that, Im not sure what I can do to have the characters themselves create the story. I don't like that when I ask my dm the name of the closest town he looks at his dmg and rolls dice, I feel like I (the player) am changing the world, it takes away from the realism of it all.

*Andur, it seems that the only way I can run a successful story is if I don't have one? I was hoping that I could make this an incredibly deep story with reasons and background behind almost everything important and have it all planned out before hand.

2. Can someone show me an incredibly simplified system for XP that would lvl them to 30 within around 90-120 sessions. I know that may be quick, but I dont wanna play this campaign forever. I'm unaware of how long it should take to level that high, but I was originally hoping to do it in 60 sessions. I know this might be unrealistic, I'm new, be nice.

3. When it comes down too it, Ive only made 4 events in the story that HAVE to happen. Everything else can be avoided or changed by the characters decisions. BUT, the bottom line is that the world is what Im creating. The world is what leads the characters through the story. But the characters lead themselves through the world. Now, is that in and of itself too much structure. Cause if it is, Im not sure how much fun Im going to have being a dm, I'm decent enough at improvisation, but what I really love, is planning for any contingency, because the WORLD is created.

4. My main goal is to give the characters the feeling of total freedom, but at the same time create an epic story with earth shattering consequences. If this is possible, or if people have had what they consider a success at these ideas, I would love their input. Or am I just playing the wrong game to do that?


I'm not sure if I was clear but two things to clarify.

One the heroic teir will not encompass world altering events. its simply the characters fixing the lesser problems brought about by the evil alliance.

I will run a series of 4e dungeon delves before the campaign begins.


thanks in advance.

 

[Pierson_Lowgal]

Here's my first piece of advice, the other people posting are wise, listen to them.

In third edition, 13 encounters of equal CR is a level. So, they're telling you 3-4 sessions for a level. With my first 3rd-Ed. casters, I found that leveling faster than that didn't give me enough time to be comfortable with spell selection. Also, save time by dispensing with the exp chart and just giving out exp at the pace you want.

Don't hold the general plot a secret. Make sure your players are cool with it before you get going.

Every group is different, but I ran a save-the-world-comets-falling-campaign and it was a total bust. The group wasn't a group, they didn't care about problems existing away from their homes...

Moreover, for a novice DM, stay small - start with local problems, they are more interesting anyway. As a corollary, the prison setup reeks of forced cohesion. The group should be cohesive because they have something in common. The feartheboot podcasters (feartheboot.com) call it a group-template. The template is pre-existing relationships between PC's that gives the game a common direction. Moreover, if you disassociate the characters from places they know and people they care about, you lose out on the opportunity to create adventures utilizing character-backstories. And stories derived from character history have more emotional impact than stories purely derived from the GM-created plot. But maybe that's more than your players care about, but I'd ask them.

Good luck.

 

[Lackhand]

I'm confused then, there are a few weird DM concepts that are coming up that seem illogical.

1. Railroading seems to mean creating a storyline for characters. I've asked the players about their requests for a story, and our current campaign (with all the same players) and their opinion fits in with my story (I think*). Outside of that, Im not sure what I can do to have the characters themselves create the story. I don't like that when I ask my dm the name of the closest town he looks at his dmg and rolls dice, I feel like I (the player) am changing the world, it takes away from the realism of it all.

*Andur, it seems that the only way I can run a successful story is if I don't have one? I was hoping that I could make this an incredibly deep story with reasons and background behind almost everything important and have it all planned out before hand.

Railroading: When the DM forces you to play your character "right". This can be the plot forcing itself forward without actual player interaction necessary; being beset on all sides by failure with one, ridiculously forced, avenue towards success, or similar bits of DM wankery. It's usually bad; sparingly, it's not intolerable, but it usually ends up with the players feeling useless. That's bad.

Basically, you get to plot out the NPCs and their situations, and the initial hook. You get to dictate to the players "Come up with a reason to stick together, or I will come up with one for you, and you will resent it."
Everything after that is in their hands, and you need to react to it. And since you have an unlimited number of unlimited-potency NPCs and situations, you need to not be a dick while reacting to their actions.
Separately, if you throw gods and artifacts at them at level 1, you not only have nowhere to scale up to, but you risk god-fatigue, where the whole thing becomes hard to sustain and farcical.
You might be able to pull it off, but it's really hard to do enjoyably, so you might want to reconsider.

2. Can someone show me an incredibly simplified system for XP that would lvl them to 30 within around 90-120 sessions. I know that may be quick, but I dont wanna play this campaign forever. I'm unaware of how long it should take to level that high, but I was originally hoping to do it in 60 sessions. I know this might be unrealistic, I'm new, be nice.

Sure! Level every 3 sessions. No, seriously. DM Fiat all the way, and never look back. It's what I use

3. When it comes down too it, Ive only made 4 events in the story that HAVE to happen. Everything else can be avoided or changed by the characters decisions. BUT, the bottom line is that the world is what Im creating. The world is what leads the characters through the story. But the characters lead themselves through the world. Now, is that in and of itself too much structure. Cause if it is, Im not sure how much fun Im going to have being a dm, I'm decent enough at improvisation, but what I really love, is planning for any contingency, because the WORLD is created.

Indeed. But "Here is the secret at level one BWAH HAH HAH DOOM!" is a bit straining for players. The problem isn't structure, the problem is rails -- and since your players know about them and have said "okay", that's not too bad a problem. But communication is key, and if people look like they're not having fun, a softer touch may be necessary.
4 is a surprisingly big number, and depending on how bitter the pill is to swallow, may cause player resentment.

4. My main goal is to give the characters the feeling of total freedom, but at the same time create an epic story with earth shattering consequences. If this is possible, or if people have had what they consider a success at these ideas, I would love their input. Or am I just playing the wrong game to do that?

It's very possible, but the only way to do it is to be responsive. You can do some work by planning your campaign as a tree of possibilities -- you know your friends, and you know which junction points are likely to have the biggest swings and which way they're likely to choose, so you can design for that to be the case.

As soon as you find the need to get the plot "back on track" (which isn't the same as getting the players back on track!), you've removed their actual agency.

Consequence is easy, and when the players actually choose consequences, every rat bastard DM everywhere lights up like a christmas tree.

I'm not sure if I was clear but two things to clarify.

One the heroic teir will not encompass world altering events. its simply the characters fixing the lesser problems brought about by the evil alliance.

I will run a series of 4e dungeon delves before the campaign begins.


thanks in advance.

Yeah, but you're throwing artifacts at them to force the plot that you want them to follow, and you're starting the campaign with this. It's not bad in and of itself, but it correlates strongly with badness. JRR Tolkien was a nifty writer, but a lousy DM.

 

[CSK]

I'd say the easiest way to make your characters level at the rate you want is to ignore the XP values of the encounters. Just let them level up every 3-4 sessions if you want 30 levels and 90-120 sessions total.

Since XP isn't used for making magic items anymore, the exact XP amount the characters have shouldn't really matter. You can still use it as a basis for creating appropriate encounters, but there's no need to keep track of every point the characters earn. I haven't calculated XP costs since sometime in the middle of 2e.

 

[Surgoshan]

Read DM of the Rings to see a hilarious example of an epic story told wrong (railroads galore! It's Chicago ca. 1885!). If your players don't think they have free will, it won't be fun, so you might have to let them wreck your plot a bit. However, treasure/xp are good ways to train them. Just turn your plot-points into pretty pinatas stuffed with loot/xp that your players whack open for their tasty, tasty candy.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

Here's a question for you;

What do you do if the PCs side with the people you deem to be the bad guys?

 

[The Lost Muse]

Here's a question for you;

What do you do if the PCs side with the people you deem to be the bad guys?

(off topic) That's AWESOME! At least 9 kinds of awesome!

(on topic) Check out some fear the boot episodes. They've got a lot of excellent advice on campaign structure, the group template, and some other useful do-dads. Also www.roleplayingtips.com