I kind of like the way Perform is handled in Iron Heroes. When you buy the skill, you choose one area of performance. You can buy more areas for one skill point each. So getting 6 ranks in Perform (string instruments, singing) would cost 7 skill points (assuming it's a class skill).Nonlethal Force said:
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D&D 3E/3.5 Fix the Bard!- Bard 3.51 now online
- Thread starter Firebeetle
- Start date
Viktyr Gehrig
First Post
I just add a bunch of other spells to their spell list and allow them to use Extra Spell to learn Wizard or Druid spells. Their magic counts as both arcane and divine for feat and PrC requirements.
I bump them up to d8 HD, but that's only because I bumped Wizards and Sorcerors to d6.
I bump them up to d8 HD, but that's only because I bumped Wizards and Sorcerors to d6.
Firebeetle
Explorer
Korimyr the Rat said:
The problem with this (and my earlier multiclass suggestion) is that it doesn't increase the "bardness" of the bard. It dilutes the concept, if anything.
Another route, and one I would still like to undertake, is to give the bards their own spell list instead of the "leftover" spell list they currently have WITH THEIR OWN SPELLS. Spells that are actually powerful for their level. Such a revision is more likely to be accepted, even though I like the class above.
Firebeetle
Explorer
Cabral said:Thanks. I've been trying to nail down the class for a Changeling NPC I've been working on ... Thanks!
Bards rule!
You are welcome. Feel free to post some stats when you are done, I'd like to see it used.
I agree that something should be done about perform, at least for Bards. Your solution sounds reasonable.Firebeetle said:
Firebeetle said:
My issue with both of the above is that quite simply, they have little impact on a Bard's power. At low levels, skills matter. In general, multiclassing major or moderate spellcasters is a bad idea (unless you use one or more fixes for the issue). At mid-high levels, the only things that bards have that seperate them from (say) an expert are their special abilities (primarily Bardic music) and spells. The problem is that these two areas combined are underpowered.
Bard 3.51
Inspire Fear - seems a bit strong for LV 3. I'd limit the number of targets to a maximum of, say, 1/3 the bard's level.
Parry - fairly complex rule for emulating, basically, a miss chance. I'd just give the Bard a +1 to Dodge AC/5-6 LV, or +1/4 if you want to limit it significnatly (like to 1 opponent).
Song of Restoration - Nice idea, but I have two suggestions: 1) split it up, with the less significant conditions at lower level(s) and the more significant one(s) at higher level(s). 2) Note that this means that any party with a Bard need not sleep, as long as the bard saves 1 song/day (I'd tend to remove Fatigued/Exhausted from the list, but your taste may vary).
I'd also seperate out the two varients of Song of Restoration into seperate names. I have no other issues with the second varient (other than the first will reduce the usefulness of the second).
Sleep - I like this one!
Dominate Person - I think there are copy/paste errors here. Personally, I'd have the domination avalible a couple levels before a Wiz could get the spell, but require performance for the duration of the domination.
Legend Lore - I don't understand the purpose of this ability; it seems to overlap with Bardic Knowledge, and one can get the same effect via a spell.
Song of Freedom - I know you didn't change it, but I think there should be an option to speed it up enough to be combat-effective at the cost of additional bardic songs.
Song of Dance, Dominate Monster - This is in the table, but the abiilty dosen't seem to be listed.
Melody of the Free Mind - A second saving throw is really nice; I'd probably nix the morale bonus.
RAT-A-TAT - I'm not clear; is the first option a -3 to AC, or a -6 Dex penalty? If the former, this is a very weak bardic ability; I'd reduce the number of bardic music uses/day to 1, and pump up the number of targets to, say 1/5 level. If it's the latter, I'd probably remove the second option (it's pointless in comparison), reduce the number of bardic music uses/day to 1, and grant a save (perhaps after the first round). The reason I consider them very different is that one's a minor penalty, whereas the other could cause paralysis (in low-dex creatures).
Soldier's March - I'd up the usage to, say 1 bardic music use/hour. I'd probably remove the Cha limit.
Tounguetwister - this is a rough DC. At LV 20 (both caster and bard), that's a DC 44 Concentration check. Unless +Concentration items are plentiful in your campaign, I'd replace this with an opposed check (Perform vs Concentration). This still should be pretty nice for high-level bards, and less campaign-dependant - they typically focus on Perform a lot more than casters do on concentration.
Overall comments: I don't notice any spells for this bard. While I agree that a spelless bard may be desirable, I am highly sceptical that you've made up for the lack of spells with a handful of bardic songs, 1 HP/LV, and a parry bonus.
I'd also add the OGL license to your work.
Inspire Fear - seems a bit strong for LV 3. I'd limit the number of targets to a maximum of, say, 1/3 the bard's level.
Parry - fairly complex rule for emulating, basically, a miss chance. I'd just give the Bard a +1 to Dodge AC/5-6 LV, or +1/4 if you want to limit it significnatly (like to 1 opponent).
Song of Restoration - Nice idea, but I have two suggestions: 1) split it up, with the less significant conditions at lower level(s) and the more significant one(s) at higher level(s). 2) Note that this means that any party with a Bard need not sleep, as long as the bard saves 1 song/day (I'd tend to remove Fatigued/Exhausted from the list, but your taste may vary).
I'd also seperate out the two varients of Song of Restoration into seperate names. I have no other issues with the second varient (other than the first will reduce the usefulness of the second).
Sleep - I like this one!
Dominate Person - I think there are copy/paste errors here. Personally, I'd have the domination avalible a couple levels before a Wiz could get the spell, but require performance for the duration of the domination.
Legend Lore - I don't understand the purpose of this ability; it seems to overlap with Bardic Knowledge, and one can get the same effect via a spell.
Song of Freedom - I know you didn't change it, but I think there should be an option to speed it up enough to be combat-effective at the cost of additional bardic songs.
Song of Dance, Dominate Monster - This is in the table, but the abiilty dosen't seem to be listed.
Melody of the Free Mind - A second saving throw is really nice; I'd probably nix the morale bonus.
RAT-A-TAT - I'm not clear; is the first option a -3 to AC, or a -6 Dex penalty? If the former, this is a very weak bardic ability; I'd reduce the number of bardic music uses/day to 1, and pump up the number of targets to, say 1/5 level. If it's the latter, I'd probably remove the second option (it's pointless in comparison), reduce the number of bardic music uses/day to 1, and grant a save (perhaps after the first round). The reason I consider them very different is that one's a minor penalty, whereas the other could cause paralysis (in low-dex creatures).
Soldier's March - I'd up the usage to, say 1 bardic music use/hour. I'd probably remove the Cha limit.
Tounguetwister - this is a rough DC. At LV 20 (both caster and bard), that's a DC 44 Concentration check. Unless +Concentration items are plentiful in your campaign, I'd replace this with an opposed check (Perform vs Concentration). This still should be pretty nice for high-level bards, and less campaign-dependant - they typically focus on Perform a lot more than casters do on concentration.
Overall comments: I don't notice any spells for this bard. While I agree that a spelless bard may be desirable, I am highly sceptical that you've made up for the lack of spells with a handful of bardic songs, 1 HP/LV, and a parry bonus.
I'd also add the OGL license to your work.
More ideas
The primary problem, as I see it, with the class you've presented is that far too many of the abilities are based off of fascinate. Fascinate is difficult to use in combat, which means that there are relatively few combat abilities. This does not mean that I'm suggesting removing those abilities; I'm suggesting adding more (particularly at high levels).
A secondary problem, with the 3.x bard as well as yours, is that a bard gains a lot of bardic song uses at high level to no useful effect, since a bard typically uses 3 or fewer songs/combat.
Allegro (LV 10+): At the cost of an additional bardic song, you can activate a bardic song that requires at most 1 full round to start as a move action.
Lone Duet: (at LV 15+?) You can start one bardic song while maintaining another. They may be of the same or different types. To do this, you need either to use two seperate instruments, or one that can perform multiple notes at once. Any save DCs from either piece, or perform checks made while using a lone duet are at -2. Starting a Lone Duet costs an additional Bardic song, and maintaining two songs at once costs an additional bardic song/round.
Lead by Song: choose a creature, and make a perform check. That creature (which may be yourself) gains a +1 morale bonus to Charisma/ 10 points on the perform check (+2 for a check of 20, +3 for 30, etc) while you maintain this song. (Note: you could do this sort of thing for any attribute, or even create a mass version)
Happiness helps: Make a perform check. All allies within 30' that can hear and see you gain your perform check -10 temporary HP (so a check of 15 grants 5 temporary HP). These temporary HP last for as long as you maintain the song.
Song of Dance: Your allies speed increases by 5. They can move up to 10' as a 5' move. These effects last as long as you maintain this song.
Spell speed: While you sing, your allies cast any spells that require 1 round to cast or a full-round action as a standard action.
The banjo is mightier than the shield: Treat any 1-handed musical instrument that you are currently using as granting a +1 shield bonus, and any 2-handed musical instrument (or larger) that you are currently using as granting a +2 shield bonus. This bonus increases by +1/5 LV. Note that shield bonses (for example, from a shield in the other hand) do not stack with each other. Also note that this is in addition to any cover bonusses from particuarly large instruments (such as an organ).
Spell power: Make a perform check. While you sing, all your allies' spells are cast a +1 CL/ 20 points on the perform check (so a check of 39 is +1).
Spell up: (LV 9+) While singing this song, when an ally casts a spell, you may make a perform check as a free (immediate) action, DC 25+Spell level (at your option; no more than once/round). If it succeeds, the spell is (at your option) Maximized, Extended, Empowered, or Enlarged. In the event that you choose an effect that is invalid for the spell (example: you failed a spellcraft check, and the caster didn't name the spell in advance), this consumes the bardic song uses with no effect. This costs two uses of the bardic song ability per spell affected. The song itself does not cost any bardic song uses (although it does cost an action).
Spell through the roof: (LV 17+) While singing this song, when an ally casts a spell, you may make a perform check as a free (immediate) action, DC 35+Spell level (at your option; no more than once/round) If it succeeds, the spell is (at your option) Heightened to LV 9, Twinned, or Persistant. In the event that you choose an effect that is invalid for the spell (example: you failed a spellcraft check, and the caster didn't name the spell in advance), this consumes the bardic song uses with no effect. This costs five uses of the bardic song ability per spell affected. The song itself does not cost any bardic song uses (although it does cost an action).
Zimbel said:
The primary problem, as I see it, with the class you've presented is that far too many of the abilities are based off of fascinate. Fascinate is difficult to use in combat, which means that there are relatively few combat abilities. This does not mean that I'm suggesting removing those abilities; I'm suggesting adding more (particularly at high levels).
A secondary problem, with the 3.x bard as well as yours, is that a bard gains a lot of bardic song uses at high level to no useful effect, since a bard typically uses 3 or fewer songs/combat.
Allegro (LV 10+): At the cost of an additional bardic song, you can activate a bardic song that requires at most 1 full round to start as a move action.
Lone Duet: (at LV 15+?) You can start one bardic song while maintaining another. They may be of the same or different types. To do this, you need either to use two seperate instruments, or one that can perform multiple notes at once. Any save DCs from either piece, or perform checks made while using a lone duet are at -2. Starting a Lone Duet costs an additional Bardic song, and maintaining two songs at once costs an additional bardic song/round.
Lead by Song: choose a creature, and make a perform check. That creature (which may be yourself) gains a +1 morale bonus to Charisma/ 10 points on the perform check (+2 for a check of 20, +3 for 30, etc) while you maintain this song. (Note: you could do this sort of thing for any attribute, or even create a mass version)
Happiness helps: Make a perform check. All allies within 30' that can hear and see you gain your perform check -10 temporary HP (so a check of 15 grants 5 temporary HP). These temporary HP last for as long as you maintain the song.
Song of Dance: Your allies speed increases by 5. They can move up to 10' as a 5' move. These effects last as long as you maintain this song.
Spell speed: While you sing, your allies cast any spells that require 1 round to cast or a full-round action as a standard action.
The banjo is mightier than the shield: Treat any 1-handed musical instrument that you are currently using as granting a +1 shield bonus, and any 2-handed musical instrument (or larger) that you are currently using as granting a +2 shield bonus. This bonus increases by +1/5 LV. Note that shield bonses (for example, from a shield in the other hand) do not stack with each other. Also note that this is in addition to any cover bonusses from particuarly large instruments (such as an organ).
Spell power: Make a perform check. While you sing, all your allies' spells are cast a +1 CL/ 20 points on the perform check (so a check of 39 is +1).
Spell up: (LV 9+) While singing this song, when an ally casts a spell, you may make a perform check as a free (immediate) action, DC 25+Spell level (at your option; no more than once/round). If it succeeds, the spell is (at your option) Maximized, Extended, Empowered, or Enlarged. In the event that you choose an effect that is invalid for the spell (example: you failed a spellcraft check, and the caster didn't name the spell in advance), this consumes the bardic song uses with no effect. This costs two uses of the bardic song ability per spell affected. The song itself does not cost any bardic song uses (although it does cost an action).
Spell through the roof: (LV 17+) While singing this song, when an ally casts a spell, you may make a perform check as a free (immediate) action, DC 35+Spell level (at your option; no more than once/round) If it succeeds, the spell is (at your option) Heightened to LV 9, Twinned, or Persistant. In the event that you choose an effect that is invalid for the spell (example: you failed a spellcraft check, and the caster didn't name the spell in advance), this consumes the bardic song uses with no effect. This costs five uses of the bardic song ability per spell affected. The song itself does not cost any bardic song uses (although it does cost an action).
Arkhandus
First Post
Zimbel said:
Man, that just deserves a laugh. I'm going to sig that if you don't mind. *Yoink!*
My opinion on the bard issue......yes, the bard is underpowered simply because it requires the player and DM both to be good at providing the bard sufficiently numerous and useful opportunities to be as useful as any other class. Other classes generally don't require the player and DM to both be puissant in the proper ways to make them fully useful.
Bards should be useful in a melee support role, and thus warrant a either decent hit die (d8 frex) or good AC bonuses (around 1/2 or 1/3 their level or thereabouts). They should also be reasonably capable with a variety of skills, which is adequate thus far (though they could use a few more class skills). They should also be reasonably competent spellcasters, which seems fine as-is (though, again, they could use a few extra spells on their list). Bards should also, of course, have some uniqueness, but their main role is supposed to be jacks-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none. They need to be reasonably capable in each field, but not very potent in any one (aside from their particular focus on trickery and social/mental manipulation). Bardic music, as-is, is just too limited in its uses and the significance of its benefits (inspire courage and inspire competence are awefully weak at upper levels, frex).
I tend to give bards some minor boosts in my homebrew campaigns. For instance, in Rhunaria I give them the ability to ignore a small amount of arcane spell failure from armor and shields, improving every half dozen levels or so. In my Aurelia homebrew, I give bards a few bonus feats and several more uses for bardic music, such as upgrades at higher levels (i.e. Inspire Valor to replace Inspire Courage, Inspire Mastery to replace Inspire Competence, and stuff like Mass Suggestion). I also have one bard variant that can expend additional uses of bardic music for the day in order to improve the potency of their bardic music.
Firebeetle
Explorer
Yes!
Snag! Excellent solution and bardic ability
Staffan said:
Snag! Excellent solution and bardic ability
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