D&D 3E/3.5 Fix the Bard!- Bard 3.51 now online

[Firebeetle]

Inspire Fear - seems a bit strong for LV 3. I'd limit the number of targets to a maximum of, say, 1/3 the bard's level.

Or I could up the level. That would be simpler.

Parry - fairly complex rule for emulating, basically, a miss chance. I'd just give the Bard a +1 to Dodge AC/5-6 LV, or +1/4 if you want to limit it significnatly (like to 1 opponent).

Yeah, but where's the fun in that? I've considered it, as an AC bonus is a lot simpler. I was trying to give the bard a distinct ability the other classes just don't have. If things get too complicated, I'll consider a dodge bonus instead or nixing the whole idea.

Song of Restoration - Nice idea, but I have two suggestions: 1) split it up, with the less significant conditions at lower level(s) and the more significant one(s) at higher level(s). 2) Note that this means that any party with a Bard need not sleep, as long as the bard saves 1 song/day (I'd tend to remove Fatigued/Exhausted from the list, but your taste may vary). I'd also seperate out the two varients of Song of Restoration into seperate names. I have no other issues with the second varient (other than the first will reduce the usefulness of the second).

Weird, I originally thought of this as two similar abilities and combined them. I'll split them back apart.

Dominate Person - I think there are copy/paste errors here. Personally, I'd have the domination avalible a couple levels before a Wiz could get the spell, but require performance for the duration of the domination.

Oopsie, I'll fix that. I like your modification, it's very "bardy"

Legend Lore - I don't understand the purpose of this ability; it seems to overlap with Bardic Knowledge, and one can get the same effect via a spell.

I thought that the bard should have access to this spell. It does give you a result of some sort, whereas bardic knowledge can fail. I think I'll change this idea to give a recheck for Improved Bardic Knowledge given time. A bard can mentally work through his body of oral lore for answers over hours or days.

Song of Freedom - I know you didn't change it, but I think there should be an option to speed it up enough to be combat-effective at the cost of additional bardic songs.

Good point, perhaps a perform check to make it faster.

Song of Dance, Dominate Monster - This is in the table, but the abiilty dosen't seem to be listed.

Oops, Song of Dance is an idea I nixed but didn't delete. Dominate Monster should be though.

Melody of the Free Mind - A second saving throw is really nice; I'd probably nix the morale bonus.

Good point, although it's a CHA based payoff which are rare and hard to come by. However, it seems complicated.

RAT-A-TAT - I'm not clear; is the first option a -3 to AC, or a -6 Dex penalty? If the former, this is a very weak bardic ability; I'd reduce the number of bardic music uses/day to 1, and pump up the number of targets to, say 1/5 level. If it's the latter, I'd probably remove the second option (it's pointless in comparison), reduce the number of bardic music uses/day to 1, and grant a save (perhaps after the first round). The reason I consider them very different is that one's a minor penalty, whereas the other could cause paralysis (in low-dex creatures).

This whole thing needs a rewrite or to be nixed. I'll look at it.

Soldier's March - I'd up the usage to, say 1 bardic music use/hour. I'd probably remove the Cha limit.

I was thinking the opposite, 1 bardic music use/day or something. Removing the CHA limit sounds good. I'm taking out "sonic" as well.

Tounguetwister - this is a rough DC. At LV 20 (both caster and bard), that's a DC 44 Concentration check. Unless +Concentration items are plentiful in your campaign, I'd replace this with an opposed check (Perform vs Concentration). This still should be pretty nice for high-level bards, and less campaign-dependant - they typically focus on Perform a lot more than casters do on concentration.

Agreed, opposed check.

Overall comments: I don't notice any spells for this bard. While I agree that a spelless bard may be desirable, I am highly sceptical that you've made up for the lack of spells with a handful of bardic songs, 1 HP/LV, and a parry bonus.

Yep, he's spell-less. Don't forget all the extra feats! However, I think we should look at a "second option" of a new and improved spell list with spells.

I'd also add the OGL license to your work.

Well, there's a problem with that. I've listed non-OGC content on there, so a OGL is not yet legal. I've thought about,er, translating certain non-OGC content to OGC content, then it could be used. That's the problem with Wizard not opening up everything they do to the SRD, it stifles the process of evolving the rules.

 

[Sejs]

DM: There are 10 gnolls bearing down on you. . .
Player 1: nothing flurry of blows can't handle.
DM: with a skinny gnoll who is casting a spell.
Player 2: I can dispell that
DM: and a large gnoll who is dual-wielding swords
Player 3: I can take him.
DM: and a gnoll with a guitar
Players (all): Crap! How can we get out of here!

Song of the Heart (requires a whopping 6 ranks in Perform).
Harmony (a 1st level Bard spell).

All of a sudden each of those 10 gnolls is getting +3 to hit and +3 to damage while that bluegrass gnoll plucks his banjo.

Toss in some Belagarn's Iron Horn (another 1st level Bard spell: AoE trip made with a base 20 str), maybe some Lesser Confusion or Grease and all of a sudden that crooner is looking a good bit more worrysome.

Bards are not to be discounted, particularly when they've got a group of allies. Later on, you add in things like Inspire Heroics (which grants temporary hp, which are ablative), Ironskin Chant (granting 5/- DR), Silence (the caster-bane), Shatter (ranged sunder that's resisted with a Will save), Sound Burst (AoE damage and stun), Blindness/Deafness, Dispel Magic, Crushing Despair, and Slow and things get mean.

Bards don't blow things up - they make you wish you were dead. My only real lament was with 3.5 Bards no longer had access to Bestow Curse. That was just the icing on the cake, but the other things they gained made up for it in the end.

 

[Firebeetle]

Bards don't blow things up - they make you wish you were dead. My only real lament was with 3.5 Bards no longer had access to Bestow Curse. That was just the icing on the cake, but the other things they gained made up for it in the end.

We've got lots of posts like this, which involve "The Bard is OK, as is."

Yes, the premise of "Fix the Bard" is that it needs fixing. However, I love a good debate as much as the next guy. So I've made the following thread

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=161198

Debate away folks!

 

[Firebeetle]

The primary problem, as I see it, with the class you've presented is that far too many of the abilities are based off of fascinate. Fascinate is difficult to use in combat, which means that there are relatively few combat abilities. This does not mean that I'm suggesting removing those abilities; I'm suggesting adding more (particularly at high levels).

I see Improved Fascinate in the near (Bard 3.52) future.

A secondary problem, with the 3.x bard as well as yours, is that a bard gains a lot of bardic song uses at high level to no useful effect, since a bard typically uses 3 or fewer songs/combat.

Good point. I'm hoping the feats work better in that regard.

Allegro (LV 10+): At the cost of an additional bardic song, you can activate a bardic song that requires at most 1 full round to start as a move action.

I like it.

Lone Duet: (at LV 15+?) You can start one bardic song while maintaining another. They may be of the same or different types. To do this, you need either to use two seperate instruments, or one that can perform multiple notes at once. Any save DCs from either piece, or perform checks made while using a lone duet are at -2. Starting a Lone Duet costs an additional Bardic song, and maintaining two songs at once costs an additional bardic song/round.

Sounds like a feat to me.

Lead by Song: choose a creature, and make a perform check. That creature (which may be yourself) gains a +1 morale bonus to Charisma/ 10 points on the perform check (+2 for a check of 20, +3 for 30, etc) while you maintain this song. (Note: you could do this sort of thing for any attribute, or even create a mass version)

Let me get this straight, this improves someone else's CHA according to a Perform roll by the bard and other version apply to other attributes? Possible feat, but is seems confusing.

Happiness helps: Make a perform check. All allies within 30' that can hear and see you gain your perform check -10 temporary HP (so a check of 15 grants 5 temporary HP). These temporary HP last for as long as you maintain the song.

I like this one. Possible ability or feat.

Song of Dance: Your allies speed increases by 5. They can move up to 10' as a 5' move. These effects last as long as you maintain this song.

This is great. Feat I think.

Spell speed: While you sing, your allies cast any spells that require 1 round to cast or a full-round action as a standard action.

Definate feat and "why didn't I think of that before"?

The banjo is mightier than the shield: Treat any 1-handed musical instrument that you are currently using as granting a +1 shield bonus, and any 2-handed musical instrument (or larger) that you are currently using as granting a +2 shield bonus. This bonus increases by +1/5 LV. Note that shield bonses (for example, from a shield in the other hand) do not stack with each other. Also note that this is in addition to any cover bonusses from particuarly large instruments (such as an organ).

Definate feat. Good idea.

Spell power: Make a perform check. While you sing, all your allies' spells are cast a +1 CL/ 20 points on the perform check (so a check of 39 is +1).

I don't know if 20 pts is necessary, I would make it a +1 for DC 20.

Spell up: (LV 9+) While singing this song, when an ally casts a spell, you may make a perform check as a free (immediate) action, DC 25+Spell level (at your option; no more than once/round). If it succeeds, the spell is (at your option) Maximized, Extended, Empowered, or Enlarged. In the event that you choose an effect that is invalid for the spell (example: you failed a spellcraft check, and the caster didn't name the spell in advance), this consumes the bardic song uses with no effect. This costs two uses of the bardic song ability per spell affected. The song itself does not cost any bardic song uses (although it does cost an action).

Another good feat idea.

Spell through the roof: (LV 17+) While singing this song, when an ally casts a spell, you may make a perform check as a free (immediate) action, DC 35+Spell level (at your option; no more than once/round) If it succeeds, the spell is (at your option) Heightened to LV 9, Twinned, or Persistant. In the event that you choose an effect that is invalid for the spell (example: you failed a spellcraft check, and the caster didn't name the spell in advance), this consumes the bardic song uses with no effect. This costs five uses of the bardic song ability per spell affected. The song itself does not cost any bardic song uses (although it does cost an action).

That DC is enormous. I don't know if this is workable. I'll look at it.

Thank you for the tremendous input. I'm glad to have this level of thought you have put into this.