D&D 5E Fixing the 5E Fighter, episode 47 - extra combat style at 5th level?

[Henry]

Speaking as DM for a currently 9th level Eldritch Knight, I've seen him change the landscape of a battlefield with a single Action Surge, ripping 3/4 of the hit points from a single tough foe. Pretty strong ability.

If the fighter were to get anything else at 5th level, it shouldn't be something that gives a static bonus. If 5e teaches us, with action surges, spell recoveries, eldritch knight teleporting weapons, etc. it's that more innovative features are the way to go, not additional bonuses.

 

[Blue]

I was re-reading the PHB yesterday, and spotted a major oddity: all the fighting classes get Extra Attack at 5th level, but all apart from the Fighter get more than that.

The Ranger and the Paladin get spells, and the Barbarian gets Fast Movement. So the Fighter is losing out. Yes, the Fighter gets an ASI at 6th level, but the other classes get stuff at 6th level too.

So how about giving the Fighter an extra Combat Style at 5th level? It ties in well with the Fighter's shtick.

Looking at it in in context I'd say that Fighters get so much 1-3 that they are already ahead of other similar classes by 5th and the others get a bit more to catch up.

 

[nswanson27]

I was re-reading the PHB yesterday, and spotted a major oddity: all the fighting classes get Extra Attack at 5th level, but all apart from the Fighter get more than that.

The Ranger and the Paladin get spells, and the Barbarian gets Fast Movement. So the Fighter is losing out. Yes, the Fighter gets an ASI at 6th level, but the other classes get stuff at 6th level too.

So how about giving the Fighter an extra Combat Style at 5th level? It ties in well with the Fighter's shtick.

I would say an ASI (or feat) at 6 would would be desired over a lot of 6th level class abilities. Not all, but a lot.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I was re-reading the PHB yesterday, and spotted a major oddity: all the fighting classes get Extra Attack at 5th level, but all apart from the Fighter get more than that.

The Ranger and the Paladin get spells.

They do, but the way spells scale with slots, those 1st level slots have backed off in relative effectiveness a little, so the 2nd level slots are largely scaling of the existing ability 'spellcasting.' It's nothing to sneeze at, but it's not quite just 'getting' something out of the blue.

The fighter, ranger & paladin all get their attacks scaling with proficiency bonus and extra attack, of course, but the fighter's Action Surge also scales dramatically when he gets extra attack, so he is getting a little something more at 5th, because of that synergy.

Looking at it in in context I'd say that Fighters get so much 1-3 that they are already ahead of other similar classes by 5th and the others get a bit more to catch up.

Let's see, by third a Champion fighter has: 3d10 HD, all armor, shields, simple & martial weapons, two skills, two saves, Fighting Style, Second Wind (1d10+3), Action Surge, & Improved Critical.

By third, and Oath of Devotion Paladin has: 3d10 HD, all armor, shields, simple & martial weapons, two skills, two saves, Fighting Style, Lay on Hands(15hp), Divine Smite, & Sacred Weapon. OK, not in that order, but that's just to map them closely to what the fighter gets. It doesn't seem like the fighter gets more, does it?

Of course, the 3rd level Paladin also gets Spellcasting (3 slots, 1st level), Oath Spells, Divine Health, and Turn the Unholy.

And, of course, the 3rd level Fighter also gets, uh, to pick whatever alignment he wants.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...to pick whatever alignment he wants.

Paladins do too, even though the oaths do have clear leanings in alignment they make no requirements.

The thing which the champion gets that others don't isn't something that everyone wants, but it is still a thing which the champion gets: not having to make as many "build" choices, and not having as many resources to track.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Paladins do too, even though the oaths do have clear leanings in alignment they make no requirements.

Must've been flashing back, there.

The thing which the champion gets that others don't isn't something that everyone wants, but it is still a thing which the champion gets: not having to make as many "build" choices, and not having as many resources to track.

Sounds kinda Zen. Y'know 'less is more.' Less is less than more, but if you want less and don't want for more, then you gain more in a having less. More or less.
Seriously, though, that's an intangible. Maybe you want your choices constrained by a mechanically limited class, and you choose champion, maybe you want your choices constrained by a vaguely knightly code of behavior and choose an Oath of Devotion Paladin, either way it's a good choice for what you want, that has no bearing on the comparison - the point of which was to show that the fighter wasn't 'ahead' the first 3 levels.
(For the record, I didn't mean to pick on the Champion, I just happened to have the SRD handy, not the book, or I'd've compared the battlemaster - or even EK, just to get 'Spellcasting' lined up on both sides and demonstrate a nice equivalency.)

 

[CTurbo]

I think the Fighter is the most versatile class and is certainly not that far behind any other class in terms of being tough and killing things. If anything, it needs more utility or face features. The xtra feat/ASI at level 6 is really strong. No other class could get you a 20 in your main stat, or 18 & 18, or Polearm master + Sentinel at level 6. The 3rd attack at 11 is very good too. I agree that Champion is a bit blah, but there needs to exist an easy play character option for newbies.

I'm the kind of person that is always looking for fun new ways to improve on things, I love making feats and homebrews. I could nitpick and complain about any class. Second Wind could be vastly improved to scale better IMO. I would like to make a Slayer archetype that IS the DPR king. I could see either combining the Champion features into the other two sub classes and having just the two.

Anyway, I do like the current Fighter class still. I've already had the pleasure of playing a couple of TWF and an Archer Fighter.