Fixing the Half Orc ('cause they're broken)

[Nyaricus]

Feldspar, you make some very good, and yes, vaild points. In my signature i state "I know I'm arguing hard for my original positions, and you're arguing the argument, but that's what arguments are SUPPOSED to be. Strongly held intellectual positions that come to some sort of compromise or understanding." This was said in an exchange between myself and Luthien Greyspear, by Luthien. So i do understand where you are coming from; i just don't agree with it (thus giving the designation of "understanding" in my mind).

I don't know if it's *that* much more powerful. Getting all those axes seems like its getting 70% of the way there: Two-handed martial weapon? Check. One handed and light martial weapons? Check. Martial throwing weapon? Check.

I was giving this as a suggestion to an alternative to giving them free access to many, many weapons which your Weapon Affinity ability. I would definitively re-work it a bit; it just screams too powerful. Part of the class system is weighing in the benefits of all given abilities to the character you have, and the concept in your head with what it can give you > your build basically nerfs that. Your system, simply, opens too many doors. I personally use weapon group profs, and limit classes in their choices (ie rogues can't take "polearms"). IMO, this really helps narrow down and define a class - with out forcing the players into one steriotypical and archetypical role. Gandalf did have a nice big sword, after all

Look at it through the weapon group POV. would you give half-orcs Axe weapon group at first level? Probably so; thats pretty fair, right? Would you give them the equivalent of 4 or perhaps 5 (for thsoe less-than-front-line-fighter-types)? The answer is no. It's too much. So what should/could we do to balance this out? Well, I'd be (under the weapon group prof system) prone to allowing half-orcs to choose any one bonus weapon group as a racial feature. IMHO, this isn't too bad; you could choose the Axe group, and gain a 2H, 1H, light and throwing axe. Or choose another build. This would greatly support the "greataxe-weilding rogue" type i beleive you suggested previously (my pardon if it wasn't you) and yet still maintain overall balance

For the standard profs, an alterantive would have to be worked out that would be fair (I'll post one in a bit)

Could? The weapons master could have trained him in the traditional soldierly ways (sword and board) and, seeing how strong this pupil was becoming, gave him a bastard sword so that he could take advantage of his natural gifts. The irony of his use of a bastard sword, which he always calls a hand-a-half sword, is not lost on him and his touchiness over the issue has led to more than a few brawls. I could probably come up with a backstory to support proficiency in any weapon we choose, but that approach breaks down when applied across an entire race, especially one that has no culture of its own. I wouldn't want to try to define racial weapons for half-elfs either.

There's something important that I think you're missing: not all half-orcs accept and embrace the orcish side of their heritage. Many will reject it outright and the desire to prove "I'm not like them" could be a fundamental part of what drives the character. Use of the orcish double axe might be anathema to such a character.

Look, my examples were one of many. I was merely trying to outline an example of why a half-orc may have that prof. No need to get down and dirty in role-playing ideas. Simply, if one were to impliment Weapon Familiarity (half-orcs treat Orcish double axes as martail weapons) and the half-orc has a build that wouldn't support that feat, then it would be a bonus for nothing. Its the same way with the dwarf. If a dwarf decides to be a Wizard, the Weapon Familiarity abilities usefulness is lost on him. Same if he plays a fighter-type that likes really big clubs. All it is is something that makes them a little more special without over-powering them. IMO, Weapon Affinity is too powerful.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Orkish Weapons available as Martial Weapons (if the Ork starts play
with the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, then he automatically has
access to all Orkish weapons)

So actually, I got there first (see thread one.) So... nyah. Nub the point, though. I see what Felix is saying; yes, Half-Orcs are a niche race, but I don't like niche races. That's me, and my strongly held opinion. Limited? Sure. Gimped? Not so much. I do thank everyone for their input, and I think Feldspar has some good ideas, but for me and my part:

+2 STR, -2 INT, -2 Penalty when using CHA related skills. Orcs may use Intimidate as a STR based skill, thus bypassing the penalty. Orcs can still be extremely strong-willed, however, hence, no penalty to CHA straight out.

That's the blend of Nyaricus & Li Shenron saying the same thing, and I agree with it. It keeps them "unsocial" without being effed on the CHA front. I also believe that they COULD develop Sorcerors, and it almost makes sense for them to do so.

Orcs may use Orcish Weapons as Martial Weapons. This stems more from a collective subconcious of having been bred to fight, rather than a reflection of their rearing.

• Weapon Affinity: Combining the natural aggressiveness and combative nature of orcs with humankind’s adaptability and quick learning has produced a race which takes to weapon play like no other:
• Half-orcs are considered to be proficient in all simple weapons
• A half-orc who gains proficiency in all simple weapons as a class ability is considered to be proficient in all martial weapons
• a half-orc who gains proficiency in all martial weapons as a class ability gains a bonus Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat of their choice

Looking at the two side-by-side, I'll go with Feldspar on this one. It gives the flexibility I'm looking for without over-powering them, and reflecting my concept of "bred for war." My original concept in giving them Racial weapons was as a Racial Memory, and I may keep that for another campaign setting, but as a standing HR, the nod goes to Feldspar for balance and simplicity (I'm big on simplicity).

Additional Boons: Scent (nixed by most), Endurance for Free (granted by me), Toughness or Natural Armor (I'll side with Toughness here, but I prefer Endurance).

I can see removing Scent, but in terms of "no other race gets it" that's pretty much why I gave it to them. I see these people as animalistic, natural hunters close to their roots; a sentient species bred and ready for war at any given moment, capable of finding their targets under almost any circumstance. I gave it to them for that express purpose.

Endurance is my way of reflecting that they're simply hardier and tougher than most other races, without giving them the +2 CON (my original fix was simply to give them +2 CON and be done with it, but it was unbalanced the wrong way). And, by extension, if they get Endurance from elsewhere they automatically get Die Hard instead. Again, reflecting a warrior nature and a refusal to freakin' die. So that's being kept for my purposes.

Favored Class: Ranger. How close am I to saying "Fighter" instead? Quite. But I prefer the flexibility of Rangers and Fighter is a go-to class for everyone ANYWAY when it comes to war, and the stat boosts and ties to nature represent more how I view Orcs than how may be close-to-canon such as Barbarians. Almost seems like Barbarian is favored because they start off illiterate. Nonsense. If we're assuming that Half-Orcs are generally raised in society, then they're more inclined to be Rangers.

+2 Racial bonus to: Survival, Intimidate, Sense Motive

And ... yeah, that's it. For now. New thoughts?

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Afrodyte]

IMO they just don't work; they aren't mathematically viable compared to any other race (including the surprisingly beefy human, with its extra feat & skills. Darkvision, shmarkvision, gimme the feat). I'm content with the last version I posted, which was +2 STR, -2 INT, Scent Feat option at 1st level, STR to be used in place of CHA for Intimidate checks (whichever is higher) and the Endurance feat for free at 1st. I also really liked the limitations on their CHA based checks without gimping their CHA straight out, I thought that was excellent.

Thoughts?

I did something similar in my rewrite (that I'll likely never get around to playtesting). Mind you, my orcs replaced the PHB half-orc and are more like Disney's gargoyles (sans wings) than Tolkien's Orcs.

I gave them +2 STR, -2 INT, and a disadvantage I call Social Stigma. I gave them a -2 penalty to all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Perform tests when interacting with non-orc races. In retrospect, though, I should have simply gone with a -2 penalty to all Charisma-based skills when dealing with races other than orcs. In another version, I made all non-orc NPCs start out as Unfriendly toward them (see Diplomacy skill). I gave them a +4 racial bonus to Intimidate because of their "monstrous" appearance.

 

[Thia Halmades]

We're all on the same page for the most part, barring some quibbles. I like my stat and ability changes, I like the flavor of being Bred for War that Feldspar added (actually, that's what I'll call it - "Bred for War.") and accounts for the Racial Memory I mentioned. As far as representing their toughness... eh. "Toughness" is a lame feat unless you go 1hp/lvl, which always seemed to border on over-powered to me, but a feat for 3hp? Bleh. So I use Endurance. Glad you found the thread useful!

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Nyaricus]

whoa; where did the ranger class come from??

Honestly, we are going for a re-vamp of the core half-orc here. That goal has been redefined for all concerned (which is why i discontinued my thoughts for a more middle-earth-inspired race; and the reasoning why perhaps other, campaign-specific details should be kept out of here).

I don't see why the additional boon to intimidate is necessary; the half-orc which you support already has the str-for-cha for intimidate ability, which will help alot. The survivor bonus doesn't fit their favoured barbarian class (read more about that below . . .) and I am not sure where the sense motive came from, but it makes no sense.

If you want to "quibble" about minor details, I personally don't think many characters should automatically be literate. This is backed up by muchy of what we know about the midlle ages, and D&D's mechanics. Out of the base classes, the bard, cleric, druid and wizard (and, arguably the rogue and sorcerer) should have automatic literacy. But that is neither here nore there; isn't it?

Barbarian works for favoured class. It fits the (unfortunate) contemporary fantasy steriotype that orcs and half-orcs seem to need to fill. I don't like that, but since we are doing this in what should be a neutral stance, it is what makes the most sense and won't have people scratching their heads wondering where their blood-thirsty, berserk savage went to.

 

[Thondor]

Barbarian works for favoured class. It fits the (unfortunate) contemporary fantasy steriotype that orcs and half-orcs seem to need to fill. I don't like that, but since we are doing this in what should be a neutral stance, it is what makes the most sense and won't have people scratching their heads wondering where their blood-thirsty, berserk savage went to.

RAAAARRRRRRR! GRRRRRRRRR! HIT HIM WITH A ROCK!!!

sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

Excellent point Nyaricus, while I love the idea of a Half-orc ranger (and I think they should happen frequently) The favour class needs to be Barbarian, a lot of the flavor of both the ranger and the barbarian are the same. But the half-orc is definatly more likely to go and smash things then sneak into the place.
At least none campaign specific orcs.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I gave them +2 STR, -2 INT, and a disadvantage I call Social Stigma. I gave them a -2 penalty to all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Perform tests when interacting with non-orc races. In retrospect, though, I should have simply gone with a -2 penalty to all Charisma-based skills when dealing with races other than orcs.
I gave them a +4 racial bonus to Intimidate because of their "monstrous" appearance.

I did something nearly identical for my custom Half-Ogre, -2 to most CHA-related skills but +4 to Intimidate (but my race has a -4 CHA already, so this actually goes to -4/+2). But, there's a couple slight problems to consider:
> There are CHA-based skills that shouldn't be penalized. Use Magic Device is the best example of this; being ugly and unpopular shouldn't make you less able to use a wand. So, I'd leave it as the explicit "-2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information". Perform is iffy; appearance would make a difference for certain types of performing (acting, for instance), but others shouldn't really be penalized so much (the music ones?). Actually, the best solution would be to make UMD not be CHA-related, but that's a more significant change since it'd alter the check DCs.
> I'd apply to penalties to relations with orcs as well. While Humans would look at the Half-Orc and see the monstrous side, a true Orc seeing one would probably focus on the weak human aspects.
Really, this sort of thing should apply to ANY half-breed when the two races involved don't get along; you'd be ostracized from both directions. If a half-Elf/half-Dwarf were in the rules, I'd say the same for them. Half-Orcs just happen to be the only core race to fit this description.
> On the flip side, the bonus to Intimidate shouldn't affect Orcs, or any monster race for that matter. After all, why would THEY be afraid of a half-breed? The Intimidate bonus should really only affect Humanoids.
> +4 to Intimidate might be a bit much, when you've removed the race's CHA penalty. Orcs aren't really THAT intimidating; Human soldiers fight them all the time and win one-on-one. The +4 is more appropriate for a Half-Ogre or Half-Dragon type of thing, I'd go with +2 for Half-Orcs.

As to the Barbarian vs. Ranger thing, I guess it depends more on your campaign.
In my last campaign, for instance, the "Barbarian" fighting style (more commonly referred to as "Berserker" or "Trancer" in-game) is more like a manifestation of raw Chaos (in the same way that Monks use a pseudomagical form of Law to fight). As a result, MANY people have this class, not just illiterate primitives.
In the campaign I played in before that, the Orcs had a full civilization. They were a bit ruthless, they didn't treat prisoners well, and they were pretty decentralized, but they weren't primitive monsters by any means.
In both cases, it just seemed that the Barbarian class wasn't really as good a fit as we wanted, so we switched the Half-Orc favored class to Ranger. Under the core PHB settings I'd agree that Barbarian is the best fit for them, but I'd just suggest being flexible on this.

 

[Nyaricus]

RAAAARRRRRRR! GRRRRRRRRR! HIT HIM WITH A ROCK!!!

sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

heh heh. Luckily, i am a level 63 Epic Druid with a pet Paragon Tarrasque standing in front of me. *Rock reflects back and smashes Thondor into something which resembles nothing so much as week-old gumbo.* "Bad boy, go clean that up!! Bad, baaaad boy!!"

Excellent point Nyaricus, while I love the idea of a Half-orc ranger (and I think they should happen frequently) The favour class needs to be Barbarian, a lot of the flavor of both the ranger and the barbarian are the same. But the half-orc is definatly more likely to go and smash things then sneak into the place.
At least none campaign specific orcs.

Thats why i made the point the way i did. Neutral stance for steriotyped D&D half-orc is a berserk warrior, which mechanically translates into the Barbarian as we know him from the PHB. While it would definitively be nice to see some half-orc rangers, priests, rogues, and druids that didnt suck, they are so nastily pidgeon-holed into what they are, that, as Thia said before (more or less) is that they are kicked out the door without so much as a bag lunch.

Lets hope that what we have worked out in this post helps those who use it in their games. this is definitively getting incorperated into my FRCS from now on.

 

[maggot]

I gave them +2 STR, -2 INT, and a disadvantage I call Social Stigma. I gave them a -2 penalty to all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Perform tests when interacting with non-orc races. In retrospect, though, I should have simply gone with a -2 penalty to all Charisma-based skills when dealing with races other than orcs.

Pretty much what I did: First I called half-orcs simply orcs. +2 STR, -2 INT, free endurance feat, -2 on diplomacy and gather info (against all races), +2 on intimidate. Basically, orcs are not the gather info/diplomacy types, they are the intimidate to get what they want types. I call orcs in my game "people of action not words." I suppose I could have included bluff in the penalty list, but that would make combat feint hard for orcs. Perform I could see as well, but I figure orc performances are just different that other performances, not any worse.

I wanted orcs to be common in the party and so far we've had an orc cleric and an orc fighter. Over the life of the campain, various players have contemplated orcs for bard, sorcerer, and monk, but they went with other concepts. So I think is a pretty balanced version.

 

[Afrodyte]

Pretty much what I did: First I called half-orcs simply orcs. +2 STR, -2 INT, free endurance feat, -2 on diplomacy and gather info (against all races), +2 on intimidate. Basically, orcs are not the gather info/diplomacy types, they are the intimidate to get what they want types. I call orcs in my game "people of action not words." I suppose I could have included bluff in the penalty list, but that would make combat feint hard for orcs. Perform I could see as well, but I figure orc performances are just different that other performances, not any worse.

I wanted orcs to be common in the party and so far we've had an orc cleric and an orc fighter. Over the life of the campain, various players have contemplated orcs for bard, sorcerer, and monk, but they went with other concepts. So I think is a pretty balanced version.

That's the sort of thing I'd been hoping to encourage with my revisions. Unfortunately, I never got a chance to playtest them.