Fixing the Half Orc ('cause they're broken)

[Afrodyte]

But, there's a couple slight problems to consider:
> There are CHA-based skills that shouldn't be penalized. Use Magic Device is the best example of this; being ugly and unpopular shouldn't make you less able to use a wand. So, I'd leave it as the explicit "-2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information". Perform is iffy; appearance would make a difference for certain types of performing (acting, for instance), but others shouldn't really be penalized so much (the music ones?). Actually, the best solution would be to make UMD not be CHA-related, but that's a more significant change since it'd alter the check DCs.

I had actually forgotten about UMD. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'd apply to penalties to relations with orcs as well. While Humans would look at the Half-Orc and see the monstrous side, a true Orc seeing one would probably focus on the weak human aspects.

Really, this sort of thing should apply to ANY half-breed when the two races involved don't get along; you'd be ostracized from both directions. If a half-Elf/half-Dwarf were in the rules, I'd say the same for them. Half-Orcs just happen to be the only core race to fit this description.

On the flip side, the bonus to Intimidate shouldn't affect Orcs, or any monster race for that matter. After all, why would THEY be afraid of a half-breed? The Intimidate bonus should really only affect Humanoids.

That's a sound idea if you have half-orcs as a hybrid and not as a distinct race in its own right. However, I completely shifted that, opting to simply have orcs instead. Like I said, more Disney's gargoyles than Tolkien's orcs.

> +4 to Intimidate might be a bit much, when you've removed the race's CHA penalty. Orcs aren't really THAT intimidating; Human soldiers fight them all the time and win one-on-one. The +4 is more appropriate for a Half-Ogre or Half-Dragon type of thing, I'd go with +2 for Half-Orcs.

Agreed. I looked over the revisions I made again, and I realized that I kept the CHA penalty, but I rooted it in the psychology of my orcs. They simply do not have the ego of other humanoid races. It's a bit more complicated than that, but suffice it to say that it made sense once I thought about it.

 

[Thia Halmades]

*Shrug* As usual, this being the HR board, what I posted was MY version which I came too in regards to pulling other threads. Sorry if there was a consideration that I was speaking for people other than myself.

- The +2 to Sense Motive comes from being lied too your whole life and generally treated like an outsider. I haven't committed these changes to play yet, and while Nyaricus has a good point, so did Li Shenron when she suggested it originally. So that's where that came from.

- +2 to Intimidate. Would YOU want to stare the thing down? Just askin'. ;-) In sincerity, this is a fix that I made aeons ago. It covers those Half-Orcs who may have taken Sorceror and only have a 12 STR. Their opponent doesn't know that, and in an RP sense (again, our friend Flavor Text) this is as much a reflection of society and being afraid of them as it is a naturally occuring result of being freakin' scary looking. Despite any CHA penalty (which we're calling a reflection of self & personality, instead of looks) they're desecended from Orcs. They're scary lookin'.

- Insofar as Favored Class: Barbarian, I've never agreed with this, but that's because me and my campaigns are a bit more... eh, civilized is the wrong word. The Barbarian RAW doesn't work for me or my designs, and since no one's taken it, because they know how their world is going to work, I haven't bothered to try and fix it. I think having a Trancer/Juicer/Rager type is great. I don't think it was done well originally, and that's my beef.

- Third, we're mixing assumptions here. On the one hand, somewhere in this thread is the assertion that Half-Orcs are, on the whole, raised by humans. Which means that 'Barbarian' doesn't make as much sense as Ranger, although with flavor text you can justify anything. So, instead of reinventing the wheel:

Favored Classes: Barbarian and Ranger. The Half-Orc is well suited to either of these lifestyles, and takes no XP penalty for advancing in either class.

So there.

- UMD. Woops. That should be "All CHA based checks relating to interaction with others, except Sense Motive." Including, but not limited too: Bluff, Diplo, Gather Info, Perform, etc. The CHA penalty here could be viewed as a Circumstance penalty; something that could be overcome with time. More like an intial reaction than a permanent hard & fast penalty. Thanks for reminding about that one, Spatzimaus.

Understand that these are me, and my HRs for a class which I need to do something other than sit in the Barbarian niche and hit stuff with a hammer. I need a class with more flexibility, more flavor, and which I feel is more balanced overall against the other base races. So those are the changes I made to reflect that.

 

[Spatzimaus]

That's a sound idea if you have half-orcs as a hybrid and not as a distinct race in its own right. However, I completely shifted that, opting to simply have orcs instead. Like I said, more Disney's gargoyles than Tolkien's orcs.

Fair enough, but I'd still argue that the "Intimidation" aspect of their appearance shouldn't affect anything bigger and tougher than them (i.e., non-Humanoids, including all the Monstrous Humanoids). Looking like a "creature out of nightmare" just doesn't apply when the opponent eats your race for breakfast. Now you could argue that both Humans and Orcs would get a huge circumstance penalty to Intimidation when used against Dragons or something, and that the orc would still be slightly better than the human at it (in which case you'd keep the bonus). But I'd add the limitation, if only because it allows a higher bonus while remaining balanced (i.e., a +4 that only works in some circumstances is equivalent to a constant +2).

Incidentally, I had a Gargoyle race in my homebrew that was heavily based on the Disney version as well, basically by slapping wings on my ECL+0 custom Half-Ogre and moving it to ECL+1. So what we're talking about is something I've dealt with before.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Morning Spatzimaus.

I yield the argument; Intimidation for me is always situational anyway, but your point is well taken; you shouldn't get a +2 bonus vs. Dragons (or Beholders, etc. - anything that can kill you with its brain is right out) but in normal, human relations, that's where the bonus would apply. Which in all honesty makes it that much more circumstantial, but for my purposes, works really well. Again, it's more of throwing an extra teaspoon of spice into my apple pie mix, rather than changing the entire ingredient structure.

Adds flavor without changing texture.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Sigurd]

Scent should not be a half-orc feat, after all neither parent has it.

RIGHTFULLY it belongs with Gnomes.

 

[Thia Halmades]

I already gave it to my Gnomes. I also gave them four nostrils.

 

[Nyaricus]

I already gave it to my Gnomes. I also gave them four nostrils.

My Tarrasque just ate them too. Sorry, that odd little twerp yelling "RAAAARRRRRRR! GRRRRRRRRR! HIT HIM WITH A ROCK!!!" while trying to intimidate me and my pet with his mere +2 bonus didn't fill him up. I'll try to be more careful in the future.


regards,

that level 63 epic druid.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Gnomes. They're like Doritos. Eat all you want. We'll make more.

 

[DamionW]

You know, a lot of the CHA problem stems from bad design in the game period, not limited to one race. WotC seems to straddle the line between CHA meaning your attractiveness and charm and it meaning your force of personality and ability to affect the world around you. If they could pick one meaning or the other, that would solve the problem. So CHA means you're generally decent looking and liked by people. So why do sorcerers need to be agreeable for their spells to work? Ok, so CHA instead means you're able to impress your will on your surroundings. So orcs and other uncoothe savages are actually more timid than other races and less able to change their minds? Which is it? That's just something that bugs me in general. [/rant]

 

[Thia Halmades]

For me, Charisma means: Force of Personality, and that colors how people perceive you. It doesn't directly relate to how good looking you are, but people can find you more attractive because of it. It's unfair to classify it as purely a physical stat, because it is listed in the mental column. But everyone's going to look at it their own way.

You can make the same argument for DEX, which has nothing to do (technically speaking) with your reaction, that's AGL (agility) a stat not included anywhere in the system. I agree, in premise, that the lack of clarification makes for an occassionally frustrating experience, but in practice, I have yet to see a mechanic based on CHA that just strikes me as totally whack.

My explanation for it is simply: A person with a high Charisma CAN be good looking, but more importantly they have powerful personalities that draw people to them. I've met extremely charismatic folk who weren't exactly easy on the eyes, but I found myself nudging elbows with them later because they were so entertaining and cool to be around.

By contrast, you can walk into almost any restuarant and not just see, but hear the sort of vapid rudeness of some of the staff. Sure, a waitress might be totally hot when she bends over, but the smile is fake. Would you say she has a high Charisma? Would you rule out her having a low one?

Ultimately you need to decide what it means to you and your game; I have NPCs who are extremely charismatic because they're great leaders, but lousy in social situations. Just like not everyone with a high STR score is ready to go play football, not everyone with a high CHA is ready to be a centerfold. It's open to interpretation; hope that gives you some ideas based on how I view it.