Fixing the Half Orc ('cause they're broken)

[Thia Halmades]

This is a carry over discussion from a Reptilian/Feline thread. Nyaricus suggested we take this to a new thread and see what the Senate said regarding fixing this race. Currently, the Ork looks like this:

Per the SRD:

• +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.
A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
• Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
• Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.

I'm not going to post any other races for comparison, because we all know where that comparison will lead. From my understanding, the entire point of the Orc is to provide a +2 STR, which many people consider "balanced." I ain't one of those people. The entire Orc ability is "Darkvision." Orc blood is entirely worthless unless you have a campaign devoted to it. Oh, and no one in my campaign plays a Barbarian. So that's out. My initial fix for this race looks like this:

+2 STR - Orks are naturally stronger than humans
- 2 CHA - However, they lack certain social graces, and most humans
are put off by their appearance. it's harder for an Ork to adapt to
human customs and society, especially since the rules of human
interaction can change from culture to culture.

Orkish Weapons available as Martial Weapons (if the Ork starts play
with the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, then he automatically has
access to all Orkish weapons)

+2 to Intimidate - an Ork's physique and natural bearing easily
intimidate those not prepared to face them down. The Ork always uses
his STR score or his CHA score (whichever is higher) to calculate his
intimidate score.

Scent Feat - an ork's sense of smell is highly developed, and they
may take the Scent Feat as an unrestricted Feat.

Endurance Feat - Orks are physical by nature, and possessed of an
extreme toughness and durability. if an Ork receives Endurance at a
later level (either through a class or permanent magickal means) they
receive the Die Hard feat instead.

The early things this fixes are as such:

- Orks are no longer stat-barred from taking an arcane class
- Yes, +2 STR is big, but it's bigger when the entire racial package shoves you in that direction without so much as a bag lunch.
- Without trying to build all new racial abilities, I added quick fixes to enhance their flavor; tougher, bigger, and more bestial.
- Ork Blood is worthless, I updated it with Orkish Weapons; if they see one, and they know martial weapons, they can use it.
- They still retain their Ork Blood & Darkvision abilities from the PHB.

Discuss.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Bagpuss]

I'ld be reluctant to change the stat bonuses at all.

However I like the intimidate advantage you gave them.

I wouldn't give them Orcish weapons as PC half-orcs have generally ment to have grown up in human communities, also because of that I wouldn't make Barbarian the Favored class, I'ld give them Any like half-elves and humans.

I might considering giving a +2 to Survival due to the hardship they are likely to have suffered growing up. Might even give them the Toughness feat for free at 1st level, for the same reason, as while it is a nice bonus then it doesn't really amount to much in the long run, so isn't hugely unbalancing.

I'ld allow them to take Scent, but not give it as a bonus.

 

[Spatzimaus]

It's too much. While you might feel that +2 STR isn't as good as 2 INT and 2 CHA, I don't think there's any question that it's better than just 2 CHA. The question you have to ask is, if someone wanted to play a brute-force type, why WOULDN'T they play your version?

IMC, we added a toned-down Half-Ogre for those people who really wanted the brute force type (and it's got a lot of drawbacks in our version), and the Half-Orc was just minorly changed. We gave it low-light vision to combine with its Darkvision, changed the Favored Class to Ranger, and allowed players to take Limited Scent as a Feat. Even though these changes are very minor, the race became much more popular, since they now had several niches to choose from.
(Scent is too good for a Feat, IMO. In 3E, there were some creatures with "limited scent"; like Scent, but shorter range, worse DCs, and you couldn't locate as precisely.)

As for your complaint that Orc Blood isn't used enough? We ran into the same problem IMC, so our solution was to add a whole slew of blood-related abilities. Item enchantments that keyed off your race, magic items that had different effects depending on your race, that sort of thing. Instead of removing the ability, you might want to try working with it, because it can do a lot of nice things for a campaign.

 

[Borlon]

Folks can generally make a pretty good case that half-orcs are a bit behind the other races on the power curve. But how far behind? One feat equivalent? Two? Six? Realistically you might think one or possibly two (if compared to the dwarf, say). But surely no more.

Your fix gives a PHB half-orc +2 Intelligence, two feats (including one, the scent special ability, that is very hard to get otherwise and is probably quite a bit stronger than a feat), a +2 to intimidate, and access to a whole bunch of exotic weapons. It seems too much; more like six feat equivalents than the one or two that maybe the half-orc is entitled to.

I thought at first that Orks lack darkvision in your fix, but if I read it right, it was just omitted from your text block. Is that right?

Anyways, I would say scale it back a little. Drop the scent and endurance at the very least.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Sorry, Scent was my fault (edited 11:17am) it should read "Have the option." I would agree with you, that would be unbalancing. Moo, moo moo. (That was me. My bad.)

To continue; compared to the original build they get +2 INT, yes, but across the board, it's unfair to gimp both Arcane casting options; further, I don't like pidgeon holing characters who are going to be using skills constantly into low-skill (or less skillful) characters than they may have had otherwise. Granted, -2 CHA isn't the most debilitating thing in the world, but there are 3 classes all of which use it as a primary trait, so I considered it sufficient.

Second, Elves start with all kinds of insanity, easily making them the proto-typical "best" race in the game (I have five players in this campaign; three were built as Elves). Humans follow a close second, again, I run a skill-heavy game, so rolling dice for those is vital. I have ONE Half-Orc, and that's only because he's playing a campaign specific subrace that went well with the story, and ironically, is playing a Ninja. Go fig.

My original fix was overpowering, keeping the original PHB stat block and adding +2 CON, because I just don't agree with any race winding up with more points than another one. Playing a Half-Orc automatically costs a player two attribute points, and four skill points, plus one per level. That just didn't sit well with me; it made it unbalanced against the player. No other race hands out that significant a penalty, and yes, +2 STR is fine, but that's all the racial package was good for.

So I dumped the +2 CON in favor of Endurance (auto-upgrade to Die-Hard if applicable by class) and gave them the Scent Feat option. The text I copied was from an original email I sent out a few months ago, and I'd totally forgotten that I hadn't updated it, and went with it.

Granting them Ork weapons as Martial isn't all that extreme; the weapons aren't 'fantastic' to the point where they unbalance a game, and the Dwarves have the same ability; they treat Dwarven Urgosh's and Hammers as martial weapons. Granted, we assume that they're raised in Dwarven culture, but if they weren't, would you deny a player the option of writing in the reason they get it, or would you simply take it out?

Lastly, in my campaign the Ork race this build is using as background isn't pig-snouted and evil, I use Orog's for that. These are tribal folk who aren't cannon fodder for PCs, so that's a bit of background that may further clarify where that comes from. However, I submit that if the Orcs are advanced enough to have their own weapons culture, it would make sense that those weapons are available and that they're built with Orcs in mind. They're still martial, but I don't see how granting a Half-Orc Fighter access to racial weaponry is unbalancing. But that's why I put up the thread.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Nice changes.

For myself I would either:

a) let half-orcs use STR as their base for intimidate

b) give them a +3 racial bonus to hit points

 

[was]

We usually just drop the -2 Int. to balance out the adjustments.

 

[Arkhandus]

Seems alright enough to me, except that the Scent ability is a bit much I think. Scent allows more effective tracking, functions similar to Blindsense in general, functions similar to Blindsight within 5 feet (who needs the Blind-Fight feat anyway? ), and just generally seems like a bit much to give with the other benefits. Endurance doesn't seem like too much, but since full-blooded orcs themselves don't have much more stamina than humans, I'd be more inclined to just give half-orcs a +1 racial bonus on any actual Constitution checks (not Constitution-based checks though), and a +1 racial bonus on Fortitude saves. Essentially a lesser version of the +2 Constitution that full-blooded orcs get, but without the more significant Concentration and HP benefits. But I'd give half-orcs Intimidate as a permanent class skill effectively, perhaps, and the favored class flexibility of humans.

 

[Nyaricus]

First off, thank you Thia Halmades for starting this thread up, and for all of the responses thus far.

Now, into the nitty-gritty > first off, lets look at ability scores, and how appropriate they are (and also, some refernces from Tolkien, since that is the sterio-typical half-orc; Thia, though you obviously have you own flavour for your campaign, i suggest we go for a straight up half-orc, and disregard campaign flavour for the moment).

STR - probably the most obvious bonus. orcs are much stronger than humans (+4 being very appropriate) and thus hal-orcs should get +2 str. i thnk most are in agreement here
DEX - neither clumsy nore dexterous, half-orcs (and orcs) have no adjustments for dex
CON - heres where it gets tricky. id personally say that orcs (and thus half-orcs) are
very sturdy creatures. but how sturdy, and in what regard? id say give them a straight up con bonus, since just a specific ability bonus doesnt make sense. but how sturdy? well, id say they are more strong then sturdy, and thus since the orc gets +4 str, he should also gain +2 con. as for the half-orc, i would say give him +1 con. (IMO [and remeber, this is only my opinion, not the groups], i dont see why not; WotC seems to shun a "partial" bonus [ie one that doesnt give +1 to a stat mod, or +2 to a stat] but for half-races it would make sense, since they inherit half their heritage from each parent). Comments?

now, into the mental abilities, where some debates have been started already . . .
INT - there should definitively be a penalty in Int. id say both half orcs and orcs get -2 Int. they are simply a race designed for war (taken literally or not). they do need booksmarts to kill, they need a nice, serrated sword.
WIS - Orcs in Middle-earth seem to have a slightly below average amount of common sense (remember that tower in which every last orc killed one another, ecept for one, whch sam got, right at the endof LOTR?) but not enough to kill off their entire race. id say, orc get -1 Wis, but half-orc have no adjustments. there seems to be no refernce to half-orcs behaving in a way in which we would be led to belive a penalty should lie in Wis.
CHA - are orcs and half-orcs diplomats in middle-earth? No. Their idea of diplomacy is killing those that offend them, and then doing a jig over the flayed corpse. I'd go as far as to give orcs -4 to Cha. they simply are NOT very persuasive, etc. the half-orc? give em -2 cha

as for other specifics:

i think half-orcs should get +2 Intimidate and -2 Diplomacy, and have the option of using Str instead of cha for Intimidate checks (as per the varient barb rule from Sword and Fist [IIRC]). Note that overall, with -2 cha and -2 diplomacy, half-orcs have -3 to diplomacy. I think this makes sense, since half-orcs and orcs are never very "influential" etc. even with skill focus (diplomacy) half-orcs are only as persuasice as the average human, and then only passably. this makes complete sense, since theyd much rather kill than talk.

also, half-orcs should have a +2 disguise bonus to appear human. this adds flavour, and makes sense from a Tolkien POV (the southerner was considered to be human for a long time, till the fledgeling fellowship set out and came to bree)

orc blood should stay. Spatzimaus has already outlined what he does, and personally, i would very much so like it if WotC made a splatbook (at least) on how to truely incorperate blood-line-oriented stuff in campaigns more (other than using a ranger with FA).

i dont think orcs should get darkvision, since they are okay with being outdoors, etc. In LOTR, true orcs have alot of problems with being outdoors, but the half-orcs didnt have any problems. Darkvision should only be given to exceptional creatures, or those that live underground. half-orcs are neither, but they should still have some of their orc heritage, which would increase their humans eyes a tad. thus, Low-light vision would be an appropriate stand-in.

also, since orcs have such an unbridled hatred of elves and dwarves, they should haev +1 damage or attack (i forget the standard one > whether you give + too attack or damage). against Elves and Dwarves. IMC, for any race which gains a bonus against their arch-enemies, i give a damage bonus. why not an attack bonus? well, i think that theirfury should show in how hard they hit, not how accurate you are. but thast my opinion. feel free to discuss.

also, i would say that fighter is the favoured class. i know this will start a debate, btu in Middle-earth, they were soldiers in Sarumons/Sarumans (sp? i am so tired right now . . .) army. Now, if one goes D&D standard, Orcs are savages. Thus the barbarian class would be appropriate for half-orc, seeing as how they would be raised under those conditions. IMO, if one goes Tolkien in their standards as i do) Fighter should be the favoured class. I gues it depends on your campaign, but either the barbarian or fighter would be appropriate (perhaps, if raised by orcs, barbarian is favoured; by humans, fighter is favoured).

also, reduced scent would be moer appropriate than the full-fledged scent feat. too much for too little. (and reduced scent would only be appropriate from a non-tolkien POV)

anyways, that is about all i have to say for now about this. summed up, heres how my version of the Tolkien-esqe Half-orc should look like:

+2 Str, +1 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha

Medium size, base speed 30 ft

Low-light Vision

+2 Disguise to appear human

+2 Intimidate, -2 Diplomacy; may use Str for Intimidate instead of Cha

+1 Damage vs Dwarves adn Elves

Orc Blood

Favoured Class: Barbarian or Fighter

 

[Nyaricus]

also, for references sake, here are two posts about fixing the half-orc. the first is the original, and the second is much newer ( has a link in th initial entry for the older post, but i have 'em both for simplicities sake).

the old thread> http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=120037

the new thread> http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=126970

enjoy!

BTW, in the new thread, i posted that my half-orc gives +1 Natural Armour. i am unsure if, when added to THIS threads version of my half-orc it would put it over the top. Comments??