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D&D 5E Fizban Is In The Wild -- With the Table of Contents!

Some people have received their copies of Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, and have posted photos (including the table of contents!) online!

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Scribe

Hero
Truth be told, I prefer that for the core books. But I do wish they (WotC) took the opportunity to push the lore more with setting books. Real robust setting books with mechanical and distinct lore differences would be cool. So it you play in FR, your cleric get its divine magic from deities, but if you play Eberron, it comes from faith, Darksun has no clerics, etc. I think in general the approach to settings as been a bit to timid.
Timid, is a good way to describe it. I'd also go with formless, and fearful.

I'm honestly sick to death of 'its this...or maybe that....or it could be....or whatever you want.' being passed off as lore, or world building.

It's nothing.

So yeah, let the core 3 books be that, but if a setting book is sold, then sell me on that DEFINED SETTING.
 

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dave2008

Legend
Timid, is a good way to describe it. I'd also go with formless, and fearful.

I'm honestly sick to death of 'its this...or maybe that....or it could be....or whatever you want.' being passed off as lore, or world building.

It's nothing.

So yeah, let the core 3 books be that, but if a setting book is sold, then sell me on that DEFINED SETTING.
I will say that I completely understand why they do it from a business prospective, I just wish it wasn't quite the one 5e to rule them all approach for settings. It doesn't bother me to much because I don't use any published settings (except to steal ideas from), but I can understand how it could be bothersome to people who have invested something into the setting lore.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
It's not a "comic force" granting the spell, it's the Dragon itself, the Dragon Blessed and Dragon Speaker (whose magic is more Bard Like then the Dragon Blessed), draw their magic right from their Dragon master, one seemingly Divine Magic, a straight up NPC Cleric from the stat block, and the other a NPC Arcane casting Bard. The third is even odder, the theme of these creatures are devoted minions so devoted they can draw magic directly from their Dragon master, but the middle one HAS NO MAGIC, it's just a fighter who can speak Draconic.
Notice, in Forgotten Realms, many "gods" are supposed to grant Clerics spells that the gods themselves dont even know, because these gods arent Clerics themselves.

Heh, personally, I find D&D gods ridiculous.

In any case, even each god has a "portfolio" that lists a few specific "cosmic forces". So the gods themselves likewise gain their divine magic from cosmic forces.

For example, Lolth reveres the following cosmic forces: spiders, evil, darkness, chaos, assassins, drow.

Cosmic force Clerics derive their divine power source in the same way, but without the intermediary tyranny, slavery, bureaucracy, or cult of personality.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
The gods themselves get their divine power source from cosmic powers.

The fact a cosmic force can transfer from one "portfolio" to an other "portfolio", demonstrates how these cosmic forces exist independently from any gods.

If a god is stripped of its connection to a cosmic power, this former god no longer has divinity.

The Forgotten Realms "gods" are redundant and superfluous.
 

Notice, in Forgotten Realms, many "gods" are supposed to grant Clerics spells that the gods themselves dont even know, because these gods arent Clerics themselves.

Heh, personally, I find D&D gods ridiculous.

In any case, even each god has a "portfolio" that lists a few specific "cosmic forces". So the gods themselves likewise gain their divine magic from cosmic forces.

For example, Lolth reveres the following cosmic forces: spiders, evil, darkness, chaos, assassins, drow.

Cosmic force Clerics derive their divine power source in the same way, but without the intermediary tyranny, slavery, bureaucracy, or cult of personality.

Correction, the Gods of D&D ARE those cosmic forces, personified. It's why I said the difference between Gods of D&D and cosmic forces is an Illusion, separated only by consciousness.

See in most setting, but most specifically FR (and maybe Planescape) The Gods are a conceptual hybrid between ultra powerful Platonic Logoi (may have misspelled that) and Occult Ergore Thoughtforms, and occasional mortals who have experience apotheosis which creates a strange tension in what the Gods of D&D actually are and why they manifest so differently in different setting. Compare this to Theros where they are straight up Uber powerful Ergore Thoughtforms, but not truly cosmic forces (arguablely Theros World Soul, Nyx, and Underworld are higher unpersonified divinities that aren't completely dependant for their existence on the mortals of Theros, but still shaped by their beliefs ).

Also note that the Sun provides the power for photosynthesis to occur in plants, but unlike plants the Sun itself can't conduct photosynthesis itself, even though it provides the power to plants for that purpose.

Gravity provides the negative energy that I need to jump without floating away, that doesn't mean gravity can itself jump.

Both personified as deities really doesn't change that, just how folks relate to them.

Plus I'd house rule all D&D Gods can cast wish at will without the possiblity of losing their ability to cast wish, as a kind of universal Lair action (with the multuverse counting as their Lair for this effect).
 
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The gods themselves get their divine power source from cosmic powers.

The fact a cosmic force can transfer from one "portfolio" to an other "portfolio", demonstrates how these cosmic forces exist independently from any gods.

If a god is stripped of its connection to a cosmic power, this former god no longer has divinity.

The Forgotten Realms "gods" are redundant and superfluous.

Did you never read up on the Time of Troubles? The Gods ARE the cosmic forces under pinning reality in FR, it's why reality during the ToT started to break down if , the ToT had gone on much longer Realmspace would have been destroyed.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Correction, the Gods of D&D ARE those cosmic forces, personified. It's why I said the difference between Gods of D&D and cosmic forces is an Illusion, separated only by consciousness.
The portfolio is the cosmic forces.

The cosmic forces are the divinity.

The Forgotten Realms "gods" personify nothing. They are more like office workers.



Heh, the rest of what you wrote is homebrew:
See in most setting, but most specifically FR (and maybe Planescape) The Gods are a conceptual hybrid between ultra powerful Platonic Logoi (may have misspelled that) and Occult Ergore Thoughtforms, and occasional mortals who have experience apotheosis which creates a strange tension in what the Gods of D&D actually are and why they manifest so differently in different setting. Compare this to Theros where they are straight up Uber powerful Ergore Thoughtforms, but not truly cosmic forces (arguablely Theros World Soul, Nyx, and Underworld are higher unpersonified divinities that aren't completely dependant for their existence on the mortals of Theros, but still shaped by their beliefs ).

Also note that the Sun provides the power for photosynthesis to occur in plants, but unlike plants the Sun itself can't conduct photosynthesis itself, even though it provides the power to plants for that purpose.

Gravity provides the negative energy that I need to jump without floating away, that doesn't mean gravity can itself jump.

Both personified as deities really doesn't change that, just how folks relate to them.

Plus I'd house rule all D&D Gods can cast wish at will without the possiblity of losing their ability to cast wish, as a kind of universal Lair action (with the multuverse counting as their Lair for this effect).



Divinity is a commodity (that reallife Roman polytheism calls "numen").

The "Time of Troubles" is a predatory era where Astral creatures stole each others portfolios.

Did you never read up on the Time of Troubles? The Gods ARE the cosmic forces under pinning reality in FR, it's why reality during the ToT started to break down if , the ToT had gone on much longer Realmspace would have been destroyed.
According to the Time of Troubles, the god Ao can, at will, remove a cosmic force from the portfolio of one god and give it to the portfolio of an other god. Thereby, any god can be demoted or promoted at will.

Divinity is a natural resource. Forgotten Realms polytheism is a business. Ao is a CEO, and the rest of the gods are bureaucratic office workers.

The worshipers are consumers of this natural resource, and if they dislike the business, they can get this resource from an other business, or start their own business.
 
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Yaarel

Mind Mage
You had me up to here.

It's a monopoly run by Ao. In FR they shouldn't get to run their own business.
Even Ao isnt the cosmic forces themselves.

Thus even Ao lacks divinity.

He is the CEO of a large business, who mines and sells divinity.

None of the Forgotten Realms gods are divine.

They are just corporate bureaucrats who try to sell something by branding what the consumers already have.
 

Scribe

Hero
Even Ao isnt the cosmic forces themselves.

Thus even Ao lacks divinity.

He is the CEO of a large business, who mines and sells divinity.

None of the Forgotten Realms gods are divine.

They are just corporate bureaucrats who try to sell something by branding what the consumers already have.
Nah, this doesn't work for FR. You undermine the whole cosmology.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Nah, this doesn't work for FR. You undermine the whole cosmology.
It kinda does though...

In FR, a god can be killed, impeached from office or demoted to more or less a powerful NPC, but the Domain they govern is never destroyed.

Just like when someone lose their job or gets moved to another department. The job itself is still there, up for the taking, is someone else fits the job description and have a good resume.

Just look at Mystril, Mystra, Midnight, Mystra, Mystra, Mystra!
 

Scribe

Hero
It kinda does though...

In FR, a god can be killed, impeached from office or demoted to more or less a powerful NPC, but the Domain they govern is never destroyed.

Just like when someone lose their job or gets moved to another department. The job itself is still there, up for the taking, is someone else fits the job description and have a good resume.

Just look at Mystril, Mystra, Midnight, Mystra, Mystra, Mystra!

Right. You can replace Bob at the front desk, but the person doing the replacing is Ao.

I dont get to decide that I'm now John at the front desk.

I'm fine with the analogy, right up to the point of 'Oh I dont want to visit this establishment, I'll just make my own.' because in FR, that Domain is provided via Ao, the CEO of the company that has a monopoly on the Domains.
 




Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It kinda does though...

In FR, a god can be killed, impeached from office or demoted to more or less a powerful NPC, but the Domain they govern is never destroyed.

Just like when someone lose their job or gets moved to another department. The job itself is still there, up for the taking, is someone else fits the job description and have a good resume.

Just look at Mystril, Mystra, Midnight, Mystra, Mystra, Mystra!
Sure, but the domain/job doesn't govern or give power. It's the god that governs that does. They are the one that is divine.
 


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