Flaming Weapon Stealth Errata?

[IanB]

So, there are enough fire powers that slow, immobilize, attack Fort, etc, to be able to take powers like that at all levels without extensive multiclassing? I punched in "fire slowed" into the compendium and there are 21, including stuff from spellscar, paragon paths, and a number of them don't actually cause the slowed condition to an enemy (one is the magma genasi's racial power that causes you to be slowed, and a number are powers that give your allies bonuses to save against being slowed). Also, one of them is only there because fire is in the title, it doesn't have the keyword. Not to mention a number of powers that are both fire and ice.

It doesn't matter if not EVERY cold power causes slow/immobilization ... or that powers with different keywords do it too ... but when a keyword DOESN'T do it, or does it rarely enough to no matter, you end up making a choice ... specialize in a damage type or get an effect.

A pyromancer, for example, has two powers total that have slow + fire, and one of them is prismatic spray. None that immobilize. So yes, there are niches that, at the very least, certain damage types do not cover.

I would go so far as to say that every damage type *has* to have at least a few different things it can do, otherwise why would you ever specialize in the first place? If every single cold power did nothing but attack Fort and cause slow, you certainly wouldn't want every cold power. Instead some slow, some immobilize, most attack fort, etc. Elemental types having *tendencies* instead of exact templated abilities is better for balance among the types of abilities and is more encouraging of specialization at the same time.

 

[mneme]

Nice idea, but a failure when it comes to actual application. In order for this to be meaningful, every power of a Type would have to have the same baggage.

Why?

Let's hit that point first: If every single power with a given type had the same baggage, it would be bad design.

Characters are better if they can do different things. It's usually (barring features that grant a great benefit from doing the same thing over and over again, like damage bonuses and/or crit optimization plus multi-attacks) better to have different attacks that do different things, so you can choose them situationally rather than being stuck doing the same thing over and over again throughout a fight.

The same is true for damage types and defenses--it's better to hit different defenses, and to do different damage types, so you can pick attacks to avoid traps and hit vulnerabilities.

So...tying a damage type to an effect to a defense as you suggest would not only be boring; it would also be bad design; when taking a character who focused on a particular damage type, you'd be completely sacrificing all other flexibility.

By contrast -- presuming a finite number of effects, it's fine to have a -trend- towards a particular effect type or effect types associated with an element (or, for that matte,r a trend towards a particular defense). Fire effects tend to hit an area, tend to do moar damage rather than inflict control effects, tend to inflict ongoing "I'm on fire" damage, tend to be (like all the elements) "all creatures" effects, and tend to target Reflex. Lightning effects tend to affect a single target, inflict status effects, target reflex, and cascade. Cold tends to drop zones, inflict movement-based status effects like immobilzie and slow, etc.

Sure, not all appropriate effects follow all the iconic marks -- Shroud of Fire can tell friend from foe and targets Fort; Freezing Burst targets reflex and is an area burst power. But as long as the number and quality of such exceptions is limited, this still makes an "ice mage" feel substantially different from a "fire mage" or "lightning mage."

Now, this principle is aside from the love affair that Wizards apparently has with cold. Cold gets more or less all the goodies --- the best burst 1 at will (high damage + type + bunch-up effect), the best feat chain (frostcheese) the excellent combination of real control effects combined with good damage and area spells, etc. Compare to Fire (which has the best level 1 daily and Fire Shroud, but not a lot else that's worthwhile in some levels, except for good damage-on-miss area spells now) or lightning (which tends towards single target spells without an accompanying advantage to make it worthwhile to take all these single target spells).

 

[WalterKovacs]

Which is the reverse of the argument originally put forth, so Fire doesnt usually slow, Acid doesnt usually push, Lightning doesnt usually reduce defenses....yada yada. The point is that no element has effects that are exclusively its territory and no element is banned from generating an effect so there is no 'power up' associated with Keyword A doing Effect B other than Fluff.

As long as you ignore all the benefits for specializing in the first place, then sure.

Pyromancers turn their burst/blast attacks into zones that deal damage. Now, it would be nice to say, immobilize people in those zones. And guess what? You can't do that ... unless you can just swap one energy type for another.

Even if the reason they originally gave various damage types their "schticks" is flavor insted of balance, as long as they keep doing it, it does create a balance of it's own. The powers still need to be balanced, and thus, if it has an effect, like slow, immobilize, or dazed, it is offset by other things, like number of targets, whether it leaves allies out of the burst, size of the burst, ammount of damage, etc. They aren't always perfect (freezing burst vs. scorching burst), but there is some balancing act at work. Similarly, part of the balance of specializing in ANYTHING is that you are giving up other options.

 

[Marshall]

Why?

Let's hit that point first: If every single power with a given type had the same baggage, it would be bad design.

No argument there, the point is that it has to be an option thats unavailable to a keyword for there to be a mechanical benefit involved in keyword shifting to poach it.

As long as you ignore all the benefits for specializing in the first place, then sure.

Pyromancers turn their burst/blast attacks into zones that deal damage. Now, it would be nice to say, immobilize people in those zones. And guess what? You can't do that ... unless you can just swap one energy type for another.

....and unless no Fire powers immobilize(or Prone or Stun or...) and are Never going to be designed to(yeah, right) than thats nothing more than a flavor change to the power.

 

[mneme]

No argument there, the point is that it has to be an option thats unavailable to a keyword for there to be a mechanical benefit involved in keyword shifting to poach it.

Why? Why isn't it enough that it be something that some elements do better than other elements? In 3.5, you could use a metamagic feat to switch spells into any elemental damage type you liked. Except Sonic. Why not sonic? Because sonic was, in a sense, better than the other major damage types (because it was less resisted, usually included extra riders, and had an extra effect on objects), and sonic spells did less damage to compensate for this, thus letting you easily gain the Sonic type might be unbalancing. Sure, Wizards is free to make up any spell they feel like -- but believe that if they make up a Wizard spell that stuns, or immobolizes, or whatever, it will have flavor and other effects that suits that unlikely result (and, of course, there are two; Prismatic Spray--which does have an appropriate flavor, and Flaming Rebuke, which tries--and where the stun is pretty marignal anyways)

 

[WalterKovacs]

....and unless no Fire powers immobilize(or Prone or Stun or...) and are Never going to be designed to(yeah, right) than thats nothing more than a flavor change to the power.

(a) It's a flavor change WITH a mechanical benefit. Since there is a mechanical benefit to changing the damage type there is more than just flavor change

(b) There are NO wizard fire powers that immobilize. There is ONE daily fire power that slows (magma beast), and one that deals poison damage that slow(s) and fire damage as seperate effects (prismatic spray). The former is a summoned creature that does not interact with the zone creating power for pyromancers, and the latter is a level 25 spell. So the wizard has ONE power that simultaneously benefits from the pyromancer's zone effect (which does specify wizard powers, stealing them from other classes doesn't count) while also slowing someone in that zone, and it's an epic daily. So, there IS a mechanical benefit to being able to take encounter power and daily power spells that are burst/blasts, and slow, immobilize, etc when those types of spells just aren't available. The possibility that a future spell COULD be made doesn't mean they can take it now.

Flavor or not, there is a mechanical impact. It IS a power up to get access to 'out of niche' effects that are not available EARLY or OFTEN to that damage type. It's a power up.

 

[Walking Dad]

So, and now we look at 'Scorching Burst' and 'Freezing Burst'. Both are fully the same, but Freeze is 'cold' and also slides...
That tells us either that fire suck for effects or the 'fire' damage type itself is considered better than cold.

BTW, Freezing Burst neither slows, nor targets Reflex.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Scorching Burst could really use an update to keep up with some of the newer options. Maybe bonus damage to the target in the origin square of the burst, upped die size, creates a zone UEONT, or even an accuracy boost. Something. Anything.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

Scorching Burst could really use an update to keep up with some of the newer options. Maybe bonus damage to the target in the origin square of the burst, upped die size, creates a zone UEONT, or even an accuracy boost. Something. Anything.

I love Scorching Burst. What is so wrong with it?

My Wizard, now Pyromancer Mage has used it and loved it for a long long time

 

[mneme]

Mith: Scorching Burst is fine.

Except...that Freezing Burst is strictly better, and Stone Blood is too -- except for damage types.

My Genasi Blaster has been very happy with Scorching Burst -- but he'd even more happily use Freezing Burst, and Stone blood would be nice too if it had a damage type. And while it doesn't do as much damage (and no longer breaks grabs), Winged Horde has huge application due to the party friendliness of it and the fun controlling effect.

Basically, the new emphasis on wizard at wills being, you know, controlling -and- damaging has meant an overall bump up in power for the available at wills; options that previously were good or at least decent (like Scorching burst, which was fine until they made things strictly better except not fire -- and Ray of Frost, which was marginal but decent [good on a wand] until Stone Blood blew it out of the water.

The fact that your Pyromancer is forced to use Scorching Burst -- wheras an Ice mage (an evoker, for instance) can use Freezing burst instead is a huge deal--particularly since Wizards aren't strikers.