Flaming Weapon Stealth Errata?

[IanB]

Except arguably the pyromancer upgrades scorching burst so that it is just as good as the other options. I don't see the problem, personally.

 

[bganon]

Except arguably the pyromancer upgrades scorching burst so that it is just as good as the other options. I don't see the problem, personally.

If by "arguably" you mean "at level 10". I find it telling that a heroic pyromancer is still quite likely going to want freezing burst over scorching burst. +1 damage is not very special.

 

[IanB]

If by "arguably" you mean "at level 10". I find it telling that a heroic pyromancer is still quite likely going to want freezing burst over scorching burst. +1 damage is not very special.

Neither is a 1 square slide, frankly. Pyromancer wouldn't be the first build ever to not really come into its own until later levels.

In any case that's what specialization does. You get the benefits of specialization, and they're offset by narrower choice.

 

[WalterKovacs]

So, and now we look at 'Scorching Burst' and 'Freezing Burst'. Both are fully the same, but Freeze is 'cold' and also slides...
That tells us either that fire suck for effects or the 'fire' damage type itself is considered better than cold.

BTW, Freezing Burst neither slows, nor targets Reflex.

a - Fire does suck for effects ... especially for controllers. While there are some control effects (in terms of "I will punish you with fire damage if you don't do what I want you to), it's mostly damage in big areas, damage over time and things like that. A fire wizard is arguably striker secondary.

b - Scorching burst suffers from being from PHB1. The control power of the wizards at-wills was horrible in PHB1. You had a long distance basic attack that did nothing but damage. And a burst ... that did nothing but damage. Cloud of daggers was nice, but outside of using it with the orb to maintain it, it lacked control (a zone that damages at the start of a monsters turn and then goes away doesn't really encourage the creature to move ... you can do some pushing/sliding tricks to use the damage multiple times, but really that's more dealing damage to lots of enemies/clearing minions). Early on, the controller role wasn't well designed. The wizard was a bit more like what the sorceror ended up being ... a striker that spreads the damage around, and clears out minions. They did have some nice control powers (sleep), but it did take them releasing arcane power and PHB2, etc to really figure out what a controller was supposed to be. As a result, most of the newer wizard at-wills are better than the originals. Thunderwave has been mostly replaced by strands (it does still have some use ... it pushes farther with a high enough wisdom, and does benefit from being thunder based and thus can be increased in size.)

So ultimately, scorching burst is basically a victim of the tendency to avoid errata as a power upgrade (with the exception being printed erratta, like the powers that went into HotFL and thus got a boost, like fireball, and many of the encounters, etc.

The level 10 effect for the pyromancer effectively makes scorching burst catch up and be worth taking, beyond the damage boost from the pyromancer's bonus to damage/ignoring resistance. That is the price of specialzation ... you may have to give up on powers you want in order to use the specialization benefits more often. It's quite possible that, until 10, the pyromancer may use at-wills that work off his second school if those ones are better.

 

[Walking Dad]

So it is ok for an at-will to be just weaker than others, because there is a specialized build (Pyromancer) that benefits more from it's damage type?

But using frost-cheese (lasting frost combo) isn't good enough and available for everyone, so Freezing Burst can be better.

Still not convinced their is a rational for the weak Scorching burst besides they avoid errata in this case.

 

[WalterKovacs]

So it is ok for an at-will to be just weaker than others, because there is a specialized build (Pyromancer) that benefits more from it's damage type?

But using frost-cheese (lasting frost combo) isn't good enough and available for everyone, so Freezing Burst can be better.

Still not convinced their is a rational for the weak Scorching burst besides they avoid errata in this case.

The rationale is that they don't errata to power things up. They errata to remove the most broken things, or things that aren't working correctly. There are a few exceptions (careful attack, and some instances where higher level encounter powers ended up being worse that lower level powers, etc)

If a power is broken, it will see play, because it's probaby so good that quite a few people will use it, and thus it will disrupt the game.

If a power is underpowered, it probably won't see play. So, unless it's something a character is forced to take, it's not in PRESSING need of errata, since it won't be a problem in play. And, if it's only RELATIVELY underpowered ... like say any non-twin strike at-will for the ranger ... there is probably not as big of a problem. Yes, the cold burst power is better than the fire power, but is scorching burst worthless? Not necessarily. There is no reason to pick it over the cold one UNLESS you want fire damage (for pyromancy, or you know you will be fighting trolls, etc) but if you did pick the power, it's not like your character is necessarily going to be gimped.

There are a number of other classes with encounter powers where you have comparable powers at the same level where one is purely better than the others ... in this case, there just happens to be a reason that someone would want the lesser option, because they want it to do fire damage.

But, long story short, it wasn't errata'd because it was an "ok" power that just happened to be obsoleted by a newer power, but is still useful if someone needs it for the keyword. That's more that can be said for some other at-wills that have no redeeming qualities at all.

If they tried to make every at-will power balance to each other equally they'd constantly be issuing errata. Sometimes it's just worth it to leave suboptimal (in a vaccum) options there because there may be some reasons to take them. They did, sort of, obsolete thunderwave, but the thunder keyword does mean you can grab the paragon feat and increase the burst (and if you crank wisdom you get a bit farther push).

 

[Kinneus]

Except arguably the pyromancer upgrades scorching burst so that it is just as good as the other options. I don't see the problem, personally.

You sure wouldn't... if you're playing a pyromancer.
As I said before, my main issue with this change is that if I want a fire-themed character, it is now much, much harder to build one, and downright impossible for certain classes. I don't like that if I want to make a fire-themed character, I have to make a pyromancer to make it effective.

(Or make it a Twin Strike Ranger if I want it to be really effective.)

 

[Marshall]

Neither is a 1 square slide, frankly. Pyromancer wouldn't be the first build ever to not really come into its own until later levels.

In any case that's what specialization does. You get the benefits of specialization, and they're offset by narrower choice.

Uh, yeah. No, thats not the way it works. Specialization makes you better at doing what you do at the consequence of not being good at doing other things.

If "What you do" is seriously underpowered, like say Fire Damage, than specializing in it cant just bring you up to "What Everything Else Does Without Specialization". If thats the case, then why the heck would you choose to specialize in that? A Fire specialist should be doing things with Fire that non-specialists cant do.

 

[garyh]

If a power is underpowered, it probably won't see play. So, unless it's something a character is forced to take, it's not in PRESSING need of errata, since it won't be a problem in play. And, if it's only RELATIVELY underpowered ... like say any non-twin strike at-will for the ranger ... there is probably not as big of a problem. Yes, the cold burst power is better than the fire power, but is scorching burst worthless? Not necessarily. There is no reason to pick it over the cold one UNLESS you want fire damage (for pyromancy, or you know you will be fighting trolls, etc) but if you did pick the power, it's not like your character is necessarily going to be gimped.

Now that Flaming Staffs don't work, I'd argue pyromancers are "forced" to take Scorching Burst.

Plus, the shear fact it exists as it does means the wizard will never see another multitarget fire at-will, since that niche is already filled. There's no hope of them replacing it with a better different power.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Now that Flaming Staffs don't work, I'd argue pyromancers are "forced" to take Scorching Burst.

All mages get two schools, and most schools have at least 2 options for at-wills. Now, if they get the level 10 benefit for pyromancy, they'll want scorching burst in order to get the most benefit (since it is the only fire burst at-will power the wizard gets), but by then, it will have mutlipe advantages (extra damage, ignores resistance, and creates a zone) to make it better than normal. They lose out on sliding the targets as well, but get all the other fire based benefits as a "trade". If they weren't getting those benefits, they probably wouldn't have taken the power because they weren't being "forced" to. There are some powers that reference a class feature (which is pretty much what powers with the fire keyword are ... they are the pyromancer's equivalent to warlock powers that get better based on certain pacts) which may not be better than the generic power.

Since at level 4 you get a second school, you can always use an at-will that works with the other school instead.

Plus, the shear fact it exists as it does means the wizard will never see another multitarget fire at-will, since that niche is already filled. There's no hope of them replacing it with a better different power.

Chilling Cloud didn't stop them from making Freezing Burst, so never say never. There is a chance they may power up scorching burst when they do the wizard's Class Compendium, or when the half-year rules update hits ... and if they keep making more support for wizards, they may end up covering that ground again. Now, they'd have to probably redue the damage to d4's or ability modifier damage if they gave it any other effects ... unless they were just going to flat out replace/errata scorching burst.