Flanking: question about a special case

[delericho]

The PHB makes no mention of an Invisible creature not being able to flank. Therefore, I would rule that such a character could flank as normal, and that all the consequences thereof apply normally.

As for Mirror Image, I would rule that it cannot cause flanking.

 

[Phlebas]

The PHB makes no mention of an Invisible creature not being able to flank. Therefore, I would rule that such a character could flank as normal, and that all the consequences thereof apply normally.

As for Mirror Image, I would rule that it cannot cause flanking.

Once an invisible creature has attacked, or otherwise made the opposition aware of themself, then definitely yes, no argument there. If its effectively hidden with no-one aware of its position, then no - IMHO. But thats just my interpretation, i'd agree RAW is ambiguous at best.

Actually, if someone was aware that there 'might' be an invisible creature behind them, i'd probably rule they were flanked because they'd be trying to protect themselves on two flanks- if they weren't sure where exactly, they could effectively make themselves vulnerable to flanking on a few angles.

But, if the target was aware of an invisible creature in the area, and attacked the wrong square, would that attacked square effectively flank the target for the purpose of another attacker (due to the distraction of attacking), or would the fact he'd attacked and 'proved' there was no opponent there to flank mean the target could ignore that square for the purpose of being flanked.

as for ignorance being bliss, you're not flanked for the visible attack, but you are both flanked & flat-footed for the surprise attack by the invisible person......

 

[RigaMortus2]

Would you allow someone to get flanking bonuses from...say...Mirror Images, then?

Only if the Mirror Images are:
1) A friendly creature to you that is on the opposite side of the enemy.
2) Threatening that enemy.

If Mirror Image satisfies both those conditions, then it would help w/ flanking. As the spell is written, it satisfies neither of those statements (it is not a creature, it is a figment, and it doesn't threaten).

 

[Lyzanor]

Not SRD

SRD 3.5 dnd on the net
http://www.d20srd.org/

As another poster said above, this comes from the Unearthed Arcana section of that website. The first page of that section specifically says that it is NOT part of the SRD and is optional material only. Therefore, your diagram is part of the optional facing rules in the Unearthed Arcana book and not part of the the core D&D rules. The flanking rules in the PHB are quite clear about the requirements for gaining sneak attacks in general.

The question of the invisible flanker is interesting. My inclination is to not allow the flank unless and until the target becomes aware of the invisible rogue. The invisible rogue however, certainly flanks and may make a sneak attack.

L

 

[RainOfSteel]

And, get surrounded by 8 rogues and you cloes your eyes? Sure, no flanking, but they *all* still have the equivalent of a +2 to hit *and* you lose your dex bonus *and* you get SAs from them all.. Still seem like the wise course of action?

You know, I was thinking much the same thing reading this topic up to this point.

Being surrounded? Closing one's eyes being an advantage during this time under the RAW?

Definitely not a good idea.

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I suppose the question is whether an invisible combatant threatens, and therefore allows for flanking.

When I look up the rules for flanking (PHB p.153), plus the definitions of flanking (PHB p308), threaten, and threatened square (PHB p.314), I cannot think of a rules reason why an invisible combatant wouldn't threaten and wouldn't provide a flanking bonus.

I don't exactly like the results of that, though.

I'm not sure how I would go on a house rule.

Does it matter whether the defender knows whether the combatant is there?

Does it matter that either attacker knows the other is there?

The rules don't say, unfortunately (or at least it isn't obvious to me).

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It would have been convenient if the rules outlined in Skip Williams All About Sneak Attacks (Part Three) article had been included in the PHB. That information seems pretty crucial to undestanding how the rules work.

 

[Stalker0]

There has been a ton of back and forth on this thread, but the RAW answer is very clear.

In order for someone to provide you a flanking bonus they must be on the direct opposite side of the opponent and must threaten that opponent in melee.

That's it, invisible, supernatural, carries a dagger, hatchet, or honking sword...doesn't matter. In this situation, you must certainly get your flanking bonus.

 

[Sound of Azure]

It would have been convenient if the rules outlined in Skip Williams All About Sneak Attacks (Part Three) article had been included in the PHB. That information seems pretty crucial to undestanding how the rules work.

Agreed.