D&D 5E Flanking

Personally I'd rather fight 6 ogres where we have to be smart about flanking to win, than fight 4 ogres without the flanking rule.

But... you dont have to be smart about flanking.

In 3.x, Flanking resulted in the '5' step shuffle' every single player or monster turn. It was neither strategic or tactical, was mostly all but assured most rounds, and it got boring (and time consuming) fast.

In 5E, with unrestricted movement inside a creatures threat range, its even more trivially easy to get.

The disadvantage of having 2 different creatures attacking you, is, well... you have 2 different creatures attacking you. Its already twice as bad as it would be if it was just the one creature. I see no need to add an extra advantage on top of that.

It overpowers feats like Elven Accuracy and GWM and so forth (easy source of advantage) while also strips value away from Wolf Barbarians and so forth.

Combat positioning is abstract anyway given the cyclical and turn based 'stop start' nature of combat. Im more than happy to leave it out of my games.

It adds nothing of value, and takes far more away.
 

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But... you dont have to be smart about flanking.

In 3.x, Flanking resulted in the '5' step shuffle' every single player or monster turn. It was neither strategic or tactical, was mostly all but assured most rounds, and it got boring (and time consuming) fast.

In 5E, with unrestricted movement inside a creatures threat range, its even more trivially easy to get.

The disadvantage of having 2 different creatures attacking you, is, well... you have 2 different creatures attacking you. Its already twice as bad as it would be if it was just the one creature. I see no need to add an extra advantage on top of that.

It overpowers feats like Elven Accuracy and GWM and so forth (easy source of advantage) while also strips value away from Wolf Barbarians and so forth.

Combat positioning is abstract anyway given the cyclical and turn based 'stop start' nature of combat. Im more than happy to leave it out of my games.

It adds nothing of value, and takes far more away.
Oh I disagree. The game of trying to get flanking without getting flanked, using terrain and thinking about turn order, etc., is maybe not rocket surgery but definitely adds an interesting level of complexity.
 

Smart is probably the wrong word, but flanking in 3rd edition and 4th edition at least provided meaningful decisions. The risk of flanking was something to keep in my, and getting into flanking might be worth a calculated risk (and in 4E it interacted with forced movement powers).

That is it's primary purpose really. I'm not convinced it's hard enough to get in 5e for it provide much in the way of a meaningful decision.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
But... you dont have to be smart about flanking.

In 3.x, Flanking resulted in the '5' step shuffle' every single player or monster turn. It was neither strategic or tactical, was mostly all but assured most rounds, and it got boring (and time consuming) fast.

In 5E, with unrestricted movement inside a creatures threat range, its even more trivially easy to get.

The disadvantage of having 2 different creatures attacking you, is, well... you have 2 different creatures attacking you. Its already twice as bad as it would be if it was just the one creature. I see no need to add an extra advantage on top of that.

It overpowers feats like Elven Accuracy and GWM and so forth (easy source of advantage) while also strips value away from Wolf Barbarians and so forth.

Combat positioning is abstract anyway given the cyclical and turn based 'stop start' nature of combat. Im more than happy to leave it out of my games.

It adds nothing of value, and takes far more away.
3.x dud bor hve everything taking a 5 foot step every turn because as I posted a screengrab of the pub earlier "experienced characters can attack more than once, but only if they don't move (a full round action)". Players were presented with the option of moving 5 feet and attacking once with an attack that might hit as they tried towards establishing a flank or not moving and making multiple attacks with a flanking bonus. Add to that the likely presence various feats and abilities to do things like change your 5 foot step and attack once and bonuses gained/given by obtaining flanking not every creature was sturdy or high ac enough to bother trying to flank in 3.5 &because of the lower range of penalty free movement it was sometimes not even likely because nearby players/monsters were focused on or hindered by other creatures.. in short you were presented by options and tools you could use as you felt optional to the situation.
 

jgsugden

Legend
Flanking in prior editions was interesting about as long as Tic Tac Toe remains interesting. After that, it became route and tedious. It was not strategic. It was either going to happen, or was impossible, and either it was automatic and boring (like a Chess Master taking their first few turns)... or it was something that newer players did not understand and was another way for experienced players to tell them what to do. People spent little time between those two unsavory extremes.

As written, in 5E, the flanking for advantage optional rule is nearly automatic advantage. That, my friends, is one of the reason people find feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master so overpowered. It is because they get advantage almost all of the time.

I played a melee assassin rogue in 5E in a campaign with this rule. It reached 9th level before it made an attack without advantage. Often, the first round advantage came from assassin, surprise or bless, but most rounds it was flanking that gave me advantage. That early experience was one of the main reasons I instituted my alternate rule that gives other benefits.

Alternate rules, such as a flanked creature provokes an OA whenever it moves (unless disengaging) or you can reroll low numbers when you are flanking (a roll of 1 or 2), tend to be less unbalancing.

I've had years of success with the lockdown nature of the flanked creatures provoke an OA (with the additional rule about being able to ignore one creature for these purposes if you give them a special OA not requiring a reaction). It has been very good for my game. It creates significance to motion without giving advantage too easily. It also creates ebb and flow to the combat as people feel pinned down, at times, but can be 'rescued' by the felling of an enemy. This is especially dynamic when you introduce a combat environmental element that encourages movement, such as a flow of lava, rising water, moving walls, collapsing floors, creeping doom, expanding fog, huge slow moving swarms, etc...
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Flanking in prior editions was interesting about as long as Tic Tac Toe remains interesting. After that, it became route and tedious. It was not strategic. It was either going to happen, or was impossible, and either it was automatic and boring (like a Chess Master taking their first few turns)... or it was something that newer players did not understand and was another way for experienced players to tell them what to do. People spent little time between those two unsavory extremes.

As written, in 5E, the flanking for advantage optional rule is nearly automatic advantage. That, my friends, is one of the reason people find feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master so overpowered. It is because they get advantage almost all of the time.

I played a melee assassin rogue in 5E in a campaign with this rule. It reached 9th level before it made an attack without advantage. Often, the first round advantage came from assassin, surprise or bless, but most rounds it was flanking that gave me advantage. That early experience was one of the main reasons I instituted my alternate rule that gives other benefits.

Alternate rules, such as a flanked creature provokes an OA whenever it moves (unless disengaging) or you can reroll low numbers when you are flanking (a roll of 1 or 2), tend to be less unbalancing.

I've had years of success with the lockdown nature of the flanked creatures provoke an OA (with the additional rule about being able to ignore one creature for these purposes if you give them a special OA not requiring a reaction). It has been very good for my game. It creates significance to motion without giving advantage too easily. It also creates ebb and flow to the combat as people feel pinned down, at times, but can be 'rescued' by the felling of an enemy. This is especially dynamic when you introduce a combat environmental element that encourages movement, such as a flow of lava, rising water, moving walls, collapsing floors, creeping doom, expanding fog, huge slow moving swarms, etc...
The strategic elements are what everything supporting flanking allowed like the front line types being able to make ignoring them to flatten the squishies a process that was either slow or painful giving the squishies in back a chance to react or better odds if something already wacked a bit starts pounding on them that if that something was at full health. strategy in a cooperative/team game like d&d involves more than just bob the fighter's pc and the one monster he's focused on unless the version is 5e where swinging around bob is neither painful or slow.
 

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Guest 6801328

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As written, in 5E, the flanking for advantage optional rule is nearly automatic advantage. That, my friends, is one of the reason people find feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master so overpowered. It is because they get advantage almost all of the time.

I played a melee assassin rogue in 5E in a campaign with this rule.
Maybe it comes down to the DM? In a campaign I'm currently in we use the flanking, but the DM factors this into scenario design and monster decision-making. It's not automatic, and sometimes you have to take risks to get it, or play defensively to prevent it.

Sure, if it's a 4 or 5 PC party against a single, non-flying enemy in a large room, and it's run as a "straight-up fight" (to quote @iserith in the Hag thread) then flanking is simple and powerful. But if the monsters are thinking, "If a bunch of pesky adventurers come in here I don't want them to flank me..." and act accordingly, the result is different. And it really can be as simple as just adding a couple more mobs, even of low CR.

Ultimately I don't think it makes the game easier or harder, as long as both "sides" (DM and players) are trying to optimize the rules for their own advantage. The benefits cancel, but the result is a more complex game.

P.S. Oh, and upthread @Flamestrike said something to the effect of "if you're being attacked on two sides that's already a big penalty." In the games I play in, characters (PCs and NPCs) often position themselves to provide flanking to an ally, even though they aren't attacking that character. Which becomes an interesting trade-off for, say, the wizard: "Well, I could move within range for a melee attack, but that will give my ally advantage on their attack. And since they are earlier in the turn order, and the bad guy is already injured, maybe it will be dead before it takes its turn."

All I can say is that we DO use flanking at my table, and we run a lot of wotc official adventures, and the difference between the fights being complex and hard or simple and easy comes down to who is DMing.
 


Maybe it comes down to the DM? In a campaign I'm currently in we use the flanking, but the DM factors this into scenario design and monster decision-making. It's not automatic, and sometimes you have to take risks to get it, or play defensively to prevent it.

Sure, if it's a 4 or 5 PC party against a single, non-flying enemy in a large room, and it's run as a "straight-up fight" (to quote @iserith in the Hag thread) then flanking is simple and powerful.

So effectively Solo monsters (such as Legendary monsters) are debuffed considerably by every PC getting 'flanking' against them more often than not.

Fighter attacks, Rogue moves and dashes 60' around the back of the monster, advantage. Monster now cops advantage from its attackers to hit it, and cant move or else it provokes an attack from the Fighter (meh), and the Rogue (ouch - sneak attack again). Instead of the combat becoming more tactical and fluid, it's actually become more static.

Lets not forget that your average DnD adventuring party will consist of only 2-3 melee PCs, with the other 2 being a Spellcaster of some sort, and usually a ranged PC, wheras many monster encounters SHOULD feature around half a dozen monsters (a boss and 4-6 or so mooks).

Being outnumbered in combat is already a massive disadvantage, and ganging up on monsters is something PCs will naturally try to do anyway (focus fire on one monster at a time till its dead, before moving onto a different monster).

The latter is a negative and unrealistic consequence of the Hit point attrition nature of combat, but still it holds true - two monsters attacking you is twice as bad as only a single monster attacking you. That's already a steep penalty to bear (taking into account bounded accuracy) and I personally see no reason to toss out easy advantage via flanking (which would also require 3.5's movement and AoO rules to make it worthwhile).

It also diminishes Battlemasters, Barbarians, Rogues, Vengeance Paladins etc who all have a way to obtain advantage anyway.
 

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Agreed. Just add interesting terrain the PCs and monsters have to contend with and it will make tactical movement more of a consideration.
That's also a great approach. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

The critique of Flanking I do acknowledge is that it diminishes the value of other abilities (e.g. pack tactics) that also grant advantage. Mitigated by the reality that when the monsters (e.g. the DM) anticipate flanking, it becomes much harder to achieve. Two enemies abreast in a 10' wide hallway? Well, good thing somebody has pack tactics.
 

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