Flat-Footed, Surprised, Initiative & Sneak Attacks?

[morez]

Posted from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted

Flat-Footed

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

My question on some interpretations:
1. A player is flat-footed in the 1st round of a combat for a rogue (e.g. to determine if a sneak attack may apply) if his initiative roll is lower than the rouge's initiative - or said different: A rouge can sneak attack someone with a lower initiative roll in the first round - in this case nearly in every combat a rouge that wins the initiative roll would get an sneak attack at the 1st round, especially with a ranged weapon
(does this apply only if at least the rouge's victim is surprised or also if both are surprised but the rouge's initiative is higher)

2. The victim of the sneak attack must be surprised at the beginning of the combat but the rouge mustnt be surprised to get his sneak attack
(if creature isnt surprised it's actually already in combat - in my eyes)

would be glad to get a clear answer. maybe also clarify when someone is surprised and when not. when do you start to roll initiative checks when not?

thanks

P.S.: btw i cannot find the search function here at the forums - still use google to search the enworld.org site

 

[shilsen]

Even without surprise, the rogue can sneak attack as long as he beats the target on initiative.

 

[Infiniti2000]

1. A person is flat-footed until they act. Note that a rogue does not get a sneak attack because their opponent is flat-footed but because their opponent is denied their dex bonus when flat-footed. So, if the rogue surprises his opponent, he (likely) gets a sneak attack in the surprise round (if he has a weapon ready or quick draw) and then gets another full round of sneak attacks if he wins initiative. Opponents with uncanny dodge are not denied their dex bonus while flat-footed and therefore not subject to sneak attack in such cases.

 

[dcollins]

Agree with #1. A rogue who wins initiative can sneak attack. A rogue who wins initiative and surprises the opponent can get 2 sneak attacks (one for surprise round, one for first regular round).

 

[FireLance]

Essentially, a rogue can sneak attack anyone who has not yet acted in combat, i.e. is flat-footed.

If neither side is surprised, the rogue can sneak attack anyone whose initiative he beats.

If the rogue surprises an opponent, he can make a sneak attack in the surprise round. He can make another sneak attack in the first round of combat if he beats his opponent's initiative.

Note that a ranged sneak attack is only effective within 30 feet, so even with surprise, a rogue may not be able to get a sneak attack if he isn't close enough to his opponent.

 

[morez]

thanks for your quick answering - it's that what i already suspected - but i wasnt sure

'not yet acted in combat' only applies in the first (not surprised) round!

if yes i wont need any new answer

 

[Shin Okada]

'not yet acted in combat' only applies in the first (not surprised) round!

If you mean "only applies in the first regular round", the answer is "no". A character is flat-footed if he does not yet have a chance to act (turn) in that "combat".

Say, a rogue is sneaked up to a group of Goblins. Goblin A & B did noticed the rogue (win in opposed Listen vs Move Silently checks), while Goblin C & D didn't.

Now, in the surprise round, the Rogue, Goblin A & Goblin B roll initiative. Assume Goblin A's initiative is 20, Rogue is 16, & Goblin B is 12.

First, Goblin A takes a turn (with only one standard action or one move action). At this moment, all the other participants of tha combat, including the rogue, are flat-footed. Because they are not yet acted. So the rogue may lose dex bonus to AC if he does not have uncanny dodge.

Then the rogue takes a turn. Now he is not flat-footed. Goblin A is not flat-footed, too. Other 3 goblins are all flat-footed. Because they are not yet acted.

Then Goblin B takes his turn. Now B is not flat-footed. Goblin C & D are still flat-footed.

This is the end of the surprise turn. Now Goblin C & D roll their initiative. Assume C is 18 amd D is 14.

Now initiative counts of combatants are,

Goblin A = 20
Goblin C = 18
Rogue = 16
Goblin D = 14
Goblin B = 12

Now, the 1st regular round starts.

When the rogue acts at his initiative counts of 16,

Goblin A is not flat-footed. Because he has already acted twice.
Goblin C is not flat-footed. Because he has already acted once in the 1st regular round.
Goblin D is flat-footed. Because he has not yet acted.
Goblin B is not flat-footed. Because while he has not yet acted in the regular round, he has acted once in the surprise round.

 

[Coredump]

Kick ass explanation Shin.

While reading, I was formulating a similar answer.... but yours is better than what I was coming up with.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A rogue who wins initiative and surprises the opponent can get 2 sneak attacks (one for surprise round, one for first regular round).

Wow - that first attack was surprising... but I really didn't expect the second one.

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

Now there's an explanation anyone can understand.