Flat-Footed

[Arrowhawk]

Sadly Bob thinks that voluntarily means that he has an option to do or not to do so something...

Yeah...I can see how you can misinterpret that. But the voluntarily refers to the lowering of your initative...not your acting.

To put it another way...to Delay means to metagame and say your Initiative hasn't come up yet. We're all going to recognize that my 28 is really an 8. The benefit being that I, as a person, have more tactical information which translates into potentially more tactical opions, like flanking, later in the round.

Yet another way to think of it is that the game didn't intend for you to be better off than someone who actually rolled an 8, which you would be if Delay meant you were no longer FF'd. WotC just wanted palyers to have the option of saying that you rolled an 28-X instead of a 28.

Whether the pros outweigh the cons in any given situation is left for the player to decide.

 

[anest1s]

I realize the rule as I've stated it, hurts your character and you're predisposed to hating it...but I'm being obective about it as I have no vested interest in interpreting the rule one way or the other.

Sorry, but you are wrong. My DMs would never consider me flat footed if I Delayed, so I am not really biased- I won't defend a rogue who plays in your group and whom I don't even know either, just because I happen to play a rogue too. I also know that I can't change your opinion, so that wasn't my point either.

That's probably an intended trade-off, on the one hand you may waste an action...on the other, you're flat footed to everyone who goes before you.

But I find such statements interesting enough...why would they intend such a trade off? I mean, clearly John could use his strength from the beginning of the combat or even before that. I invested on my dexterity though...and I have to pay something...why so?

Without Delay keeping you flat footed, the higher the DEX I have the less I get flat footed...but when I am flat footed I really, really suck.
If the Delay keeps me flat footed, then I have to trade off between sucking on attacking and sucking on defending. Now if I was a fighter I would still have my feats, my heavy armor, my heavy shield etc etc...plus I wouldn't care about the rogue.


About the ready action...sadly I don't want to depend on out-of game instructions to the Fighter. He wouldn't like it either. The DM wouldn't like it too. So why would he force me to do that?

Even if the plain English of the rule was ambiguous, the penalties imposed by the Ready action would suggest that it would be unacceptable to give Full Round actions while simultaneously avoiding being FF. I think the intent is force the players to sacrifice one benefit for another...not give them both benefits. That's an opinion.

I am afraid I am unaware of the penalties of a ready action. Ready action isn't Delay...it is great in just a few situations, but not really connected with Delay.

And then if you are right. What that so much needed penalty on rounds after the first would be?

______

About your second post.

Give me a way to Delay in game then. Rob would love that. He may even be able to curse John in his mind, for slowing him down.

 

[SolitonMan]

Yeah...I can see how you can misinterpret that. But the voluntarily refers to the lowering of your initative...not your acting.

To put it another way...to Delay means to metagame and say your Initiative hasn't come up yet. We're all going to recognize that my 28 is really an 8. The benefit being that I, as a person, have more tactical information which translates into potentially more tactical opions, like flanking, later in the round.

Yet another way to think of it is that the game didn't intend for you to be better off than someone who actually rolled an 8, which you would be if Delay meant you were no longer FF'd. WotC just wanted palyers to have the option of saying that you rolled an 28-X instead of a 28.

Whether the pros outweigh the cons in any given situation is left for the player to decide.

Except that you can act and delay. For example, when my turn comes up in the initiative order, I can drop my longspear (free action), quick draw my longsword (free action), shout at my enemy,"Come and get me, craven coward!!" (free action) and delay. When I finally do act, my initiative is set at whatever count I act on for the rest of the combat, unless I take any other delay or ready actions.

 

[Arrowhawk]

My DMs would never consider me flat footed if I Delayed, so I am not really biased

But if they read my interpretation of the rules...and they agreed with it...then you would be upset? Correct?

I won't defend a rogue who plays in your group and whom I don't even know either

We don't have any PC rogues in our group. No one has had attempted to use Delay in our campaign yet.

But I find such statements interesting enough...why would they intend such a trade off?

For the same reason they put FF in the game to begin with. Look, in the PHB, the first or second rule in the "Combat" section is:

Everyone starts out flat footed.

That's a big deal if you're a rogue or a high dex character. Especially when the RAW say you lose your ENTIRE dex bonus...regardless of what it is. But if you have a Dex of 10, you get away scott free. Pray tell me how does that makes sense in terms of balance?

There are all kinds of decisions the WotC made with regards to penalties, conditions, modifiers that leave one scratching his head going, hunh?

I mean, clearly John could use his strength from the beginning of the combat or even before that. I invested on my dexterity though...and I have to pay something...why so?

The TWF have been asking that since 3.0. I have a suspicion of what the answer is...but that's another topic.

Without Delay keeping you flat footed, the higher the DEX I have the less I get flat footed...but when I am flat footed I really, really suck.

Dude, you're preaching to the choir. The problem is not with being FF...it's with the NO DEX BONUS. If it were just a flat tax...it wouldn't be so egregous to high dex characters who lose Init.

But again, statistically, you are least likely to be caught flat footed...so maybe that's why the game shrugged on the nastyness of no dex bonus...and subsequently being FF'd

If the Delay keeps me flat footed, then I have to trade off between sucking on attacking and sucking on defending.

So wait...you think it's unfair to make you choose between being good at one or the other?

Now if I was a fighter I would still have my feats, my heavy armor, my heavy shield etc etc...plus I wouldn't care about the rogue.

Grass is always greener on the other side, isn't it? I'm sure the fighter would LOVE Uncanny Dodge...which you can't get as a pure Fighter. Several dice of Sneak Attack damage would be pretty snazzy too.

Honestly, all the classes can't be balanced. It's not possible. What you hope for is that you each class has meaningful purpose.

About the ready action...sadly I don't want to depend on out-of game instructions to the Fighter. He wouldn't like it either. The DM wouldn't like it too. So why would he force me to do that?

So saying, "I ready an action to flank anyone the fighter attacks within my 30' radius" is in voilation of someone's sense of decorum?

I am afraid I am unaware of the penalties of a ready action. Ready action isn't Delay

Go here:

Special Initiative Actions :: d20srd.org

And then if you are right. What that so much needed penalty on rounds after the first would be?

Not sure I understand the question?


Just out of raw curiosity, after your DM lets you delay your action....what is your Iniatitive in the next round? Do you still keep your 28 and get to decide if you want to Delay all over again?

 

[Arrowhawk]

Except that you can act and delay. For example, when my turn comes up in the initiative order, I can drop my longspear (free action), quick draw my longsword (free action), shout at my enemy,"Come and get me, craven coward!!" (free action) and delay. When I finally do act, my initiative is set at whatever count I act on for the rest of the combat, unless I take any other delay or ready actions.

That would be a Ready Action, not a Delay. If you could take Free actions during your initiative ...then Delay would say that. Instead, it says...

"By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act."

Emphasis added.

So techincally your Free actions violate the requirements of a Delay. The DM should you require to state a trigger for whatever action you're going to take later in the round.

Both Delay and Ready change your initative order.

 

[Arrowhawk]

About your second post.

Give me a way to Delay in game then. Rob would love that. He may even be able to curse John in his mind, for slowing him down.

I would use the Ready action and state your trigger so that John knows what he has to do to enable it. If John doesn't get the hint and do it, then you have my permisison to beat him with a wet noodle.

In the meantime, can you make TWF not suck in the hands of a pure Ranger?

 

[kitcik]

Yeah...I can see how you can misinterpret that. But the voluntarily refers to the lowering of your initative...not your acting.

To put it another way...to Delay means to metagame and say your Initiative hasn't come up yet. We're all going to recognize that my 28 is really an 8. The benefit being that I, as a person, have more tactical information which translates into potentially more tactical opions, like flanking, later in the round.

Yet another way to think of it is that the game didn't intend for you to be better off than someone who actually rolled an 8, which you would be if Delay meant you were no longer FF'd. WotC just wanted palyers to have the option of saying that you rolled an 28-X instead of a 28.

This is a pathetic grasping at straws after you have been proven wrong again and again.

You know what the "voluntary" refers to because you wrote the game? No? Oh, you know what the voluntary means b/c you are the all-knowing. Sorry, my bad.

Delay is metagaming to get more info? Why do you say that? Because otherwise your point would have less validity? It couldn't possibly be that my character is waiting for more info? Wouldn't they want tactical info? Maybe flanking? No, of course not, they are flat-brained as well as flat footed in the Arroganthawk multiverse.

WOTC didn't want the higher Dex to have an advantage, they just wanted you to be able to say you rolled differently? This is your logic? Really? Are you smarter than a 5th grader?

That would be a Ready Action, not a Delay. If you could take Free actions during your initiative ...then Delay would say that. Instead, it says...

"By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act."

Emphasis added.

So techincally your Free actions violate the requirements of a Delay. The DM should you require to state a trigger for whatever action you're going to take later in the round.

Both Delay and Ready change your initative order.

On the other hand, I actually agree 100% with you here. Taking free actions on your original initiative would preclude a delay. You could only do a ready action.

 

[Arrowhawk]

This is a pathetic grasping at straws after you have been proven wrong again and again.

You know what the "voluntary" refers to because you wrote the game? No? Oh, you know what the voluntary means b/c you are the all-knowing. Sorry, my bad.

Delay is metagaming to get more info? Why do you say that? Because otherwise your point would have less validity? It couldn't possibly be that my character is waiting for more info? Wouldn't they want tactical info? Maybe flanking? No, of course not, they are flat-brained as well as flat footed in the Arroganthawk multiverse.

WOTC didn't want the higher Dex to have an advantage, they just wanted you to be able to say you rolled differently? This is your logic? Really? Are you smarter than a 5th grader?

Been waiting to release that all day? Out of curiosity, is making a post like that release stress like a bowel movement or are you all tensed up from having to roll Initiative on account of your becoming a combatant?

On the other hand, I actually agree 100% with you here.

Hey, even a blind squirrel like me can dig up a nut once in awhile. I promise not to do it again.

 

[kitcik]

Did someone say something?

...


...


Nope, must've just heard the toilet flushing.

 

[Arrowhawk]

Nope, must've just heard the toilet flushing.

That was kind of funny. I think I may have even lol'd.

EDIT:

Wait...let me check my diaper....yup...I lol'd.