Flat-Footed

[anest1s]

This could be specifically why the Ready action is considered a Standard Action. To penalize your character for becomeing aware earlier in the round.

Uh...but...RA is very different than Delay...you can act in an other guys turn - obviously having a full round action within an other guys turn would be overkill.

I am not talking about waiting 5 sec and doing everything on the last...the change of initiative reflects just moments of waiting, in which you see what other ppl do. Sure, you can also start moving and then wait- but you need a trigger, which limits you to something you have predicted.

Here is a common situation where you have to delay.
The barbarian wants to start a fight. Now, he gets a surprise round, because most ppl failed their (sense motive, spot, whatever) checks or didn't expect him to do so. You however as a proper rogue, know what will happen. And you obviously win initiative.

Now, if you act before the barbarian, later, when you are within that annoying circle of truth, you will be the one who started the fight. Thats bad.
So you have to Delay, or Ready Action.
Well, good luck predicting what said barbarian is gonna do.
Edit: You won't lose your turn more or less one way or an other. However you will still be slow

And...who is Skip?

 

[Arrowhawk]

A resoution of Delay

I was reading the Rules of the Game, All About Initiative articles..
Rules of the Game: All About Initiative (Part Three)

And Skip says this...

Ready has advantages and disadvantages when compared to delay. The main advantage ready has over delay is that you resolve your readied action before the event that triggers it and you sometimes can disrupt a foe's action, such as when you ready an action to distract a spellcaster.

The main disadvantage ready has versus delay is that you can ready only a standard or move action -- you don't get a full round's worth of actions when you ready.​

He never mentions the FF'd flag in reference to Delay or Ready. It seems highly unlikely that if Delay left you flat footed...he would fail to mention it as one of the advantages vs disadvantages. Based on this omission, I have to conclude that if Ready removes the FF flag, so does Delay.

Oh, and a bone for Celebrim. Skip talks a lot about when to roll for initiative. He basically states it's a DM's call. But line of sight, with no regard to distance, is a reasonable justification.

Also, Per Skip, PC's that hear a creature behind a door and bust in for a surpise round, and he says you don't roll Init, until after the door is opened. But you can still get caught flat footed depending on how the DM wants to handle it.

There still are no initiative checks because a surprise round represents a flurry of unexpected activity before a battle begins in earnest. After the party uses their surprise actions, everyone makes initiative checks. None of the PCs will be flat-footed, even if they don't act early in the initiative order, because they acted during the surprise round
​

Later, he offers this.

You could make things tougher on the attackers by skipping the surprise round. The attackers could prepare themselves as noted earlier, but the encounter would not truly begin until the door opens. At that point, both parties would be aware of each other and initiative checks would be in order. If you choose this approach, it's reasonable to assume that the attackers might be flat-footed until their first actions. The party might know a battle is coming, but they're still subject to a moment of uncertainty when the actual event begins.
​

Emphais added.

In any event, I think this brings the discussion to a close on my part.

And...who is Skip?

Skip Williams, was one of the writers for the PHB 3.5 and the guy who was writing Rules of the Game articles for 3.5.

 

[Water Bob]

I was reading the Rules of the Game, All About Initiative articles..
Rules of the Game: All About Initiative (Part Three)

And Skip says this...

Ready has advantages and disadvantages when compared to delay. The main advantage ready has over delay is that you resolve your readied action before the event that triggers it and you sometimes can disrupt a foe's action, such as when you ready an action to distract a spellcaster.​

The main disadvantage ready has versus delay is that you can ready only a standard or move action -- you don't get a full round's worth of actions when you ready.​

​

​

Why does Skip say that if you Ready an action that yo dont' get a full round's worth of actions?

In the PHB example that he cites, it says: For instance, if you move up to an open door and then ready an action to swing your sword at whatever comes near....

So, what's happening here? The character gets his Move action when he moves up to the open door. And, he gets his Standard action in the form of a swing of his sword when that action is triggered. The character got both his Move and Standard action (if triggered).

How did the character not get a full round's worth of actions?

Does the quote mean if the readied action isn't triggered, then the character doesn't get a full round's worth of actions?







EDIT: There's another thing that skip says that is confusing. "Ready: Ready is a standard action that allows you to prepare another standard action or a move action at some later point in the round. You must specify some condition that triggers your readied action."

If Ready is a standard action...and it allows you to prepare another standard action, then the character is taking two standard actions in a round.

Plus, this doesn't fit with the example from the PHB where the character moves to the doorway (a Move action) and then prepares to attack an enemy that walks through. If the Ready is a standard action, then this character is getting a Move action, then a standard action (the Ready), and then the attack standard action if triggered. That would be three actions during the round.

So....something is smelly with Skip's description here.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

He means "all at once."

If you ready, for instance, you cannot take the Full Attack action; the best you can do is move and then get a single attack.

EDIT:

Gawd. Dammit. Water. Bob.

I thought we beat that "Two standard actions" things out of you a long time ago.

Ready IS a standard action, which lets you prepare another standard, move, or free action to take later on, given a set of triggers.

You still only have 1 standard action per round; you're just paying it in advance of actually doing anything.

Seriously. You're wrong on this. Accept it, and give up this line of argumentation.

 

[Water Bob]

Seriously. You're wrong on this. Accept it, and give up this line of argumentation.

I'm playing it the way you are, but if you look at the line "Ready is a standard action that allows you to prepare another standard action....", that sure as heck looks like he's talking about two standard actions in the same round.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'm playing it the way you are, but if you look at the line "Ready is a standard action that allows you to prepare another standard action....", that sure as heck looks like he's talking about two standard actions in the same round.

... *sigh*

Ready is a standard action which allows you to prepare a standard action, a move action, a free action, or a switft action to take at a later time under specific circumstances.

You are paying for your prepared action in advance. You are not somehow getting multiple standard actions in the same round.

I mean, by that logic, someone who readies to move later on in the round is getting two move actions and a standard action in the same round. You're not; you're just spending your action in advance.

 

[Water Bob]

... *sigh*

Ready is a standard action which allows you to prepare a standard action, a move action, a free action, or a switft action to take at a later time under specific circumstances.

You are paying for your prepared action in advance. You are not somehow getting multiple standard actions in the same round.

... *long sigh*

The quote says that "Ready", which is the act of preparing the action, is a standard action. Then, the quote says it allows you to prepare for ANOTHER standard action. That indicates two standard actions, the Ready and the action you prepare.



Now, the example doesn't support this. So, I think what he means, and what you mean (but do not communicate well) is that if you ready an action for use later, it becomes a standard action.

For example, normally a Free Action does not count against your actions for the round, but if you ready a Free Action for use later after it is triggered, then it counts as a Standard Action.

And, because you can only have one Standard Action per round, you can't take a Standard Action before you ready an action. For example, you couldn't attack and then ready another attack. But, you could Move and then Ready an attack.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

You guys are just getting lost in the wordplay. Both of you agree, essentially, that technically by RAW it's giving two standard actions on that line or two. However, the actual example shows that using a Ready action means you initiate a Standard like normal on your turn, but finish it later on in response to something you specified. The actual readied action takes up a standard regardless of whether the response took less effort than a standard, such as a move.

 

[Greenfield]

You guys are just getting lost in the wordplay. Both of you agree, essentially, that technically by RAW it's giving two standard actions on that line or two. However, the actual example shows that using a Ready action means you initiate a Standard like normal on your turn, but finish it later on in response to something you specified. The actual readied action takes up a standard regardless of whether the response took less effort than a standard, such as a move.

You know, if you're just going to go and get all reasonable on us like that, then I'm just not going to talk to you any more.

I mean, I had 30 gp on this thread carrying on for at least two more pages! How dare you go and force common sense into the mix. How dare you!

<grumble grumble...>

 

[Jackinthegreen]

You know, if you're just going to go and get all reasonable on us like that, then I'm just not going to talk to you any more.

I mean, I had 30 gp on this thread carrying on for at least two more pages! How dare you go and force common sense into the mix. How dare you!

<grumble grumble...>

To quote and modify a Monty Python line: I in your general direction!