D&D 5E Flatfooted? Or: Advantage on Surprise?

[Geeknamese]

I'm of the opinion that any time you give everyone a bonus that comes as a class ability, it cheats that class out of what makes them special. As a Rogue, knowing that everyone got advantage on surprise rounds would either make me not want to choose the Assassin archetype, or be disappointed if I had already chosen it.

That being said, if you like adding this rule to your game, don't let me stop you. There is an element of realism to it that Flatfooted in 3E captured, and I understand if some players miss that. I'd just suggest giving the Assassin archetype something to make up for that choice.

Trit

To gain surprise you need to be stealthed otherwise, everyone sees each other and initiative happens normally. If unity are stealthed to gain surprise, you have the benefit of the unseen attacker which is advantage on attack rolls. This means that if you have surprise, you have a full round of actions and advantage on all attacks. There is no way to gain surprise without the element of stealth which means the attacker that is stealth end will always have advantage.

 

[MortalPlague]

Question: If Person B is surprised by Person A (an Assassin), when do you roll initiative? If you roll initiative before the surprise round and surprised Person B wins then he goes first. He can't do anything as he's surprised, but he does go first. Therefore, Person B has taken a turn and Person A doesn't get advantage, unless he's still hidden. Furthermore, Person B is no longer surprised so Person A can't get his automatic critical hits.

I believe the rule is that a surprised person doesn't act in the first round of combat. So they wouldn't count as having acted.

Even if that's not the letter of the law, I'm sure that's the RAI.

 

[Riley37]

On another hand, this is a good reason for game designers to be careful what they make into class features. Straw-man extreme example: if Paladins get riding as a class ability, then no one else can ride any mount... which will become inconvenient for farmers and hunters everywhere!

 

[Mercule]

I'm of the opinion that any time you give everyone a bonus that comes as a class ability, it cheats that class out of what makes them special. As a Rogue, knowing that everyone got advantage on surprise rounds would either make me not want to choose the Assassin archetype, or be disappointed if I had already chosen it.

That being said, if you like adding this rule to your game, don't let me stop you. There is an element of realism to it that Flatfooted in 3E captured, and I understand if some players miss that. I'd just suggest giving the Assassin archetype something to make up for that choice.

Apparently, I wasn't clear. I do not want to bring this rule into the game. I don't find it's existence in the RAW, it steps on the assassin feature, and it just seems "wonky" to me. The only reason for starting this thread is that the player strongly recalls me having allowed it, previously. I'm pretty sure his recollection is off because of how wrong the ruling feels, but he's generally a great player, so I want to make sure I'm not just forgetting some rule I'd found and used, previously.

Quite honestly, I do not care for the organization of the 5E PHB. I can't put my finger on it, but it just doesn't feel right. Normally, I can remember exact pages, tables, etc. for a variety of games. My memory of rules is one of the reasons I'm typically the GM for any game. 5E hasn't quite gelled, in that regard, yet.

 

[Trit One-Ear]

Apparently, I wasn't clear. I do not want to bring this rule into the game. I don't find it's existence in the RAW, it steps on the assassin feature, and it just seems "wonky" to me. The only reason for starting this thread is that the player strongly recalls me having allowed it, previously. I'm pretty sure his recollection is off because of how wrong the ruling feels, but he's generally a great player, so I want to make sure I'm not just forgetting some rule I'd found and used, previously.

My mistake. I stand with you on all your reasoning.

Trit

 

[PnPgamer]

Giving advantage to everyone negates rogues assassin path special ability.

 

[KarinsDad]

Nope. Arcane Trickster. I'm now wondering if that stuck in his head, though, when he read through, and he just confused it with the fact that he's almost always sneaking (and gets very similar bonuses from it).

This gives you a way to illustrate to your player that his assumption is not the default rule.

 

[guachi]

Giving advantage on surprise (all the time) doesn't negate the Assassin, but it isn't in RAW, either. (I don't think). You can surprise without having advantage. The assassin's ability for advantage before someone has gone in combat can occur whether they are surprised or not. So it behooves the Assassin to have high initiative - high dex, alert, 1/2 proficiency bonus on initiative (from Bard or Fighter), or I suppose you could use Guidance to get the bonus. You could easily have +15 to your initiative roll.

 

[KidSnide]

To gain surprise you need to be stealthed otherwise, everyone sees each other and initiative happens normally. If unity are stealthed to gain surprise, you have the benefit of the unseen attacker which is advantage on attack rolls. This means that if you have surprise, you have a full round of actions and advantage on all attacks. There is no way to gain surprise without the element of stealth which means the attacker that is stealth end will always have advantage.

This isn't necessarily true. For example, a standard campsite ambush could easily begin with the characters on watch having detected the wandering encounter just before it begins, so the just-woken characters are surprised by the formerly stealthy attackers, while the characters on watch are not. Likewise, a group of duergar blacksmiths busy at their forge might also be surprised by a group of unconcealed PCs bursting through the door.

However, I agree that stealth and surprise often go together. Certainly, the best ambushes begin with the ambushers concealed (or, better yet, invisible) and the victims surprised. IME, this is a tremendous advantage for the ambushing side. It can turn a difficult fight into a cakewalk, particularly if some spell casters are taken out before they get a turn. Not all characters will get advantage (particularly if they have to move out into the open to get in melee range), but it will end up happening at least part of the time.

-KS